System Updates & Recommendations

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System Updates & Recommendations

Postby Zanaikin » Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:24 am

for posting updates...
also for collecting recommendations from others~
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Re: System Updates & Recommendations

Postby Zanaikin » Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:51 am

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Re: System Updates & Recommendations

Postby Zanaikin » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:49 pm

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Re: System Updates & Recommendations

Postby Zanaikin » Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:25 am

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Re: System Updates & Recommendations

Postby Laharl » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:45 am

Recommendation: MORE SKILL POINTS! I tried building a skeleton character and with a 26 Int (after dumping both level points into it), found talents in combination with complimentary skills to eat away at skill points like there's no tomorrow. Want a decent AC? You're gonna need lots of Reflex ranks. You'll also need (at this level) the equivalent of an entire other skill just for weapon/armor proficiency. Want some basic magic so you can use something like Mana Shield or Barrier Field (this needs a clarification on whether or not it requires a magic use talent)? That's gonna soak you two skills with a bunch of points in them and a talent.

Also, Skill Focus is just about the only thing you can take as a feat at first level since basically everything else requires more than one rank in a skill.

For some clarification, the character I wanted to make was basically a 2H melee specialist with the ability to use Barrier Field to help with defense. The skeleton I came up with is linked below:

EDIT: I wasn't sure if this was the place for this, but it seemed to be, so I went with it.


Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pron surfed, weak and weary,
Over many a strange and spurious site of ' hot xxx galore',
While I clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning, and my heart was filled with mourning, mourning for my dear amour,
"'Tis not possible!", I muttered, "Give me back my free hardcore!
...quoth the server, 404.-Bash.org

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Re: System Updates & Recommendations

Postby Zanaikin » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:03 pm

yeah this is the right place to post this ;) and awesome recommendations finally xD
anyhow, yeah the same thoughts passed through my mind on a number of these so let me broaden them:

1. Skill points: well I figured I can't really raise it above 6 base skillpt/level since many generic builds (like a typical mercenary or craftsmen) don't really use that many skills, while shortening skill point bonuses to say, 1/2 intmod, would make int too powerful too quickly (it's already the most powerful or second of the 9 stats, given it governs skill points PLUS adds to a huge list of skills). My only thought of fix was to ALSO give +1 skillpt/level for every 5 resolve modifier, which not only makes sense but also makes it so that not just really smart characters but also hard-working characters can have a good skill count. This would be packed alongside making WP +1/week recovery to 1/3 resolve modifier instead of 1/5; resolve feels like a relatively low-key stat right now so I'm not worried about it suddenly getting overpowered. What do you think on that?
P.S. humans will still get their +1 skillpt/level, although probably not the feat. I haven't posted since I haven't thought of any other races to use other than humans yet =\

2. Mana Shield and Barrier Field doesn't require Magic Proficiency talents, since they use unrefined/unshaped mana. It's mostly the spellcraft (and hence Know[arc]) investment that yells: might as well be a spellcaster anyhow.

3. Skill Focus is meant to be the most commonly taken feat in the game. The Lvl1 feat is pretty much meant to be either a Skill Focus or Jack of All Trades (either way it defines what your character was trained in during early ages), lest it be an inherent feat... I figure it's not unreasonable to expect fighters to grab Skill Focus (Martial Arts or Marksmanship), or casters to grab Skill Focus (Know[arc]), or experts to grab Skill Focus (whatever professor/craft) asap.


P.S. The proposed changes to resolve also makes me wonder if I should make Agility add to AP/round every 3 mod (like int/wis adding 1/3) instead of every 5 mod... thoughts? Agility doesn't add to that many things right now, but it adds to 3 of the most important stats: AP/round, Reflex/AC, and Initiative (which is a really expensive skill with 2 complimentary skills)
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Re: System Updates & Recommendations

Postby Laharl » Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:13 pm

Let's look at this more closely. Your typical merc needs one of Marksmanship or Martial Arts, Reflex, Initiative, either Perception or Sense Motive, Fortitude, Guard is a good idea for melee-types, Concentration is useful for everybody so that you don't get mindraped...that's six or seven skills for basic combat competency right there. Using 1/5 resolve for skill points would help, I think, but frankly, I think 65 is the absolute minimum point buy this system is playable at, and even then everybody's playing specialists. I would probably use 75 or 80 minimum, as 65 was barely enough to build the skeleton, given that you need 40 points just to have modifiers of +0 in every stat but AFF, which is really helpful given how many things are affected by multiple stats and that +0 is only the beginning of making things that are actually useful. Compare D&D point buy, where 12 points, less than half the "recommended" point buy values (28 for LFR, 25 for LG, 30-34 for most reasonable DMs), is enough to accomplish not having any ability penalties.

Looking at it, getting +2 skill points/level requires either +6 INT or +3INT/+5RES, which require 12 and 18 points, respectively. The other boosts to RES might make the extra 6 points worthwhile, but I wouldn't count on it.

You also might consider divorcing talents from skill points, given that at first level, you either get skills or weapon/armor proficiency, not both. This is a terrible choice to foist on players. Even a mage still is likely to want light armor proficiency. Wanting heavier armor for tanks makes it even harder.

Also, do you lose skill points for having a negative INT mod? You say min 0 for HP/MP gain from Fort/Spellcraft ranks, but not for skill points. If so, then you might as well start INT at 18 because nobody's going to ever start with less.


Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pron surfed, weak and weary,
Over many a strange and spurious site of ' hot xxx galore',
While I clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning, and my heart was filled with mourning, mourning for my dear amour,
"'Tis not possible!", I muttered, "Give me back my free hardcore!
...quoth the server, 404.-Bash.org

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Re: System Updates & Recommendations

Postby Zanaikin » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:59 pm

Okay, first thing dave, the completely open skills is making you want to max everything, which is not meant to be. Remember not every class had a good BAB and all good saves. Well same here. Also, since there are no class abilities to provide bonuses to skills, what you dump into skills is effectively part of your 'class focus' as well... Meaning you shouldn't be maxing a skill completely unless say, in D&D, you would have made optimizing this stat as one of your needs when picking classes/PRCs.

---Martial Arts or Marksmanship, Reflex, and Fortitude are core skills for heavy combatants, and even there I should remind that heavy combat classes usually have either good Fort/HP or good Reflex, not both. So yeah it's expected for players to balance between HP, AC, and DR (armor proficiencies).
---Remember the Fighter/Warrior D&D class doesn't even have list/spot/sense motive all that. imo only scouts/infiltrators/archers should have full/almost ranks in Perception. Initiative is meant to be an expensive skill few can afford and taken sparingly (if at all). Since most fighters want Reflex, even a dabble of Perception/Sense Motive would allow you to add a few points to Initiative if you really want it.
---Guard isn't meant to be pumped. Even without any ranks in it you'll get a bonus (dexterity mod + 1/3 wisdom mod + shield) which can be pretty decent. Basically this is meant to be a very light-invested skills unless you intend to take guard talents early (you'll also notice they tend to have Martial Arts requirements double the Guard ranks prereqs---).
---Concentration shouldn't be expected to have more than a 0.6pt/lvl investment seeing as combat classes have weak will saves originally. Also high-lvl enchantment spells that are mindrape-worthy are very time-consuming to cast, so if they can pull it off it better be worthywhile. Fast will-save spells will probably be mostly limited to distractions and fear effects (which the defender gets a ridiculous bonus on).

As for proficiencies: this system is designed as a 'Lvl3/4 base', meaning a typical trained professional would be around Lvl 3~4. Being a Level 1 or 2 means that this character is probably still a kid being trained as an apprentice and shouldn't be proficient with the stuff (yet). Experienced professionals, which is normally expected for say heavy-armor troops or battlemages, would be even a level higher (4~5).
The main case here is that some builds could use a lot of talents, others barely need any. I think I'll make some feats that'll also grant free talents from a category as you roll along so the strain isn't all piled atop skill points though--- that'll also give more options at Lvl1.

My calculations end up that a generic (int20) professional soldier, who'd be focused on these skills, would have something like a 5.5 skillpt/lvl investment. Which leaves 1 or 2 ranks open by Lvl3 for proficiency talents which--- yeah isn't enough to grab both a weapon proficiency and basic armor pro talents (not mention if they want both melee + a ranged weapon)... talent feats might be able to fix this a bit...

For the +6INT vs. +3INT/+5RES, it's 17 points for +6INT/+0RES vs 18 points otherwise, lest you intend to have a 0 willpower pool from 15RES.

As for ability stats, it was meant to be redirected more towards getting bonuses as you lvl up rather than getting all high stats at start; although I admit this isn't really felt yet. I'll change this to adding a +1 each to two separate stats on every even level (doubling what it is now) and maybe cut down point-buy to 60 instead. At the same time keep in mind modifiers go up a lot faster... an 18 (max D&D point-buy) gives only a +4 which is too low imo, but a 35 (max point-buy stat here) would give a +15, which doubles to +30 for that one key skill once you grab Skill Mastery in mid-lvls, which is ridiculous and should be every bit as rare as point-buy makes it right now. A 25 here may seem like the equivalent of a 12, but it's +5 bonus is a lot more powerful and shouldn't be a common everystat thing like 12s were back in D&D.

EDIT: and if you're wondering, yeah the old assault-mages that dominate Penthiae are meant to be really hard to build here and must involve a few sacrifices to get there... a trade-off for the fact they're insanely powerful from an adaptability perspective.
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Re: System Updates & Recommendations

Postby Zanaikin » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:00 pm

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Re: System Updates & Recommendations

Postby Laharl » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:29 pm

If the system is designed to have L3-4 as its base, then why include levels 1 and 2 if they aren't playable? Those talent feats are wonderful, by the way. I'm not saying that 25s should be everystat things, but 20/23/25 is the desired starting value for every stat so that you're getting something out of it (or at least not taking penalties). Having negative modifiers is generally a much worse thing in this system than in D&D:

negative Str: You can barely use melee weapons and armor that haven't been specially enchanted.
negative Dex: You're not taking any combat feats for a long time unless they require Str/MArts or hitting anything unless you're using a heavy weapon.
negative Agi: Your AC sucks and you're going last.
negative Int: You have no skill points. Your life sucks.
negative Vit: Your fort save sucks and you have no endurance (okay, this isn't a huge deal either).
negative Wis: Your will save sucks and you may be taking an additional penalty on all skills. Ouch.
negative Cha: Irrelevant outside social matters, a big deal there. Just like D&D.
negative Res: You have no or virtually no Willpower and you're not recovering it either. You also go can't overchannel or stay up in negative HP. Not a huge deal, but hardly Cha either.
negative Aff: Either you don't care at all or you really, really care.

compare to D&D:

negative Str: Good luck fighting in melee in light armor and with light weapons.
negative Dex: Your reflex save, AC, and initiative are going to suck. Can be remedied through items/base ref save, respectively.
negative Con: Your HP and fort save sucks. Can be remedied through items/base fort save.
negative Int: No skill points. Not as big a deal as in this system, though.
negative Wis: Your will save and spot/listen checks suck. Can be remedied through items/base will save.
negative Cha: See above Cha entry.

Basically, the difference is that it is far easier in D&D to shore up weaknesses caused by negative ability modifiers, particularly saves. Low Intelligence is a huge problem in this system and frankly it's the most important stat by a long shot, especially if you want to do more than one thing.

Also, at 6th level, letting every even level give two points but reducing the starting points to 60 actually takes two points away from us. Was this intentional? I would argue against it for reasons I've already enumerated.


Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pron surfed, weak and weary,
Over many a strange and spurious site of ' hot xxx galore',
While I clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning, and my heart was filled with mourning, mourning for my dear amour,
"'Tis not possible!", I muttered, "Give me back my free hardcore!
...quoth the server, 404.-Bash.org

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Re: System Updates & Recommendations

Postby Zanaikin » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:17 pm

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Re: System Updates & Recommendations

Postby Laharl » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:26 pm

You really can't skill-pump Fort to cover for a negative VIT. Every 5 ranks gives you (VIT mod min 0) HP, so unless you have 21 VIT or more, there's not much to do there. Your HP is just going to suck. Period. I had a recollection of there being some talent or feat that addressed this, something kind of like Toughness, but I can't find it.

I appreciate the goal of trying to cut down on min-maxing and I think you've succeeded to a degree. Another possibility is to cap the maximum possible starting stats lower to require some well-rounding, though I don't know where to cap them besides the existing disincentive to go past 25.


Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pron surfed, weak and weary,
Over many a strange and spurious site of ' hot xxx galore',
While I clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning, and my heart was filled with mourning, mourning for my dear amour,
"'Tis not possible!", I muttered, "Give me back my free hardcore!
...quoth the server, 404.-Bash.org

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Re: System Updates & Recommendations

Postby Zanaikin » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:45 pm

I mean pumping Fort for the checks, not the HP. Limiting HP to VIT was my way of ensuring VIT's importance in a system that doesn't increment HP by the level.

Mmmh, I'm not sure a starting-stat cap is really needed. Cause yeah like you said, point-buy already puts a lot of disincentive to go past 25, and especially so past 30.
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Re: System Updates & Recommendations

Postby Zanaikin » Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:23 pm

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Re: System Updates & Recommendations

Postby Zanaikin » Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:03 pm

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