Military Strategies

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Re: Military Strategies

Postby Zanaikin » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:38 am

gave the Battlemaster's second Empower to Expeditious Movement (their other one is Dimension Door) since we hear a lot about a need for increased speed on their part.
This gives them a 200ft speed with 1,000ft run speed (run feat).
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Re: Military Strategies

Postby Zanaikin » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:10 pm

Updated battlemasters a slight bit since last time - gave them Protection from Energy atop their Resist Energies, and notice since Dimension Door is a range effect... using Enlarge instead of Empowered for 2,000ft DDs.
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Re: Military Strategies

Postby Zanaikin » Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:27 pm

also, a note, seeing as after talking to Dave I noticed some people haven't quite gotten this into their minds yet:

Both armies on the Eastern Campaign side are fully Airborne. All Imperial units are airborne, I believe I've clarified that a dozen times. That includes ALL of their vehicles, including their artillery.
Same goes for most of the alliance side forces, even if some of them have a limited airborne combat duration (like the Battlemasters and their Air Walk which lasts for over 2hrs without my weird round(action/duration time)-to-(actual)time translation - which is enough for most purposes.)

And if anyone is hanging onto the notion artillery shells only burst upon impact (I hope there aren't anyways), I'd like to point you to altitude trigger shells (available back in WW2) and proximity shells.

So for all purposes, terrain doesn't matter as much in a war like this. You could be fighting over the ocean for all that matters. Although mountains and forests and such will still provide cover/concealment for troops that stay on land rather than go airborne.
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Re: Military Strategies

Postby Zanaikin » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:53 am

Alright, I know we haven't went to the stage of detailed planning when the Imperials get closer and you have better data on the battle formations yet... but...

It's time for you guys to start thinking about detailed plans, and not just general planning.
A few things to think about:
What numbers are involved in each attack - the main attack, how many branches of the main attack, how many teleportation/entangling attacks and how much to send, how many teleportation circles to propose opening, if there are any specific operations / special maneuvers you'd like to pre-plan, etc etc.

Just something to ponder about in meantime...
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Re: Military Strategies

Postby Mr_Praetorian » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:29 pm

Well, the idea behind the solid fog and cloudkills was actually a bit more complex than just trying to disorient the Imperials. The benefit of such spells is that it in order to avoid them, the enemy has to temporarily bunch up while they're waiting for a dispel. My idea would be to coordinate the WMS and the Sky Galleons so that the damage dealing tactical shots were being fired into the same coordinates as the battlefield control spells. In theory, this should both increase the number of targets hit, and reduce the chances of the enemy being able to dispel it due to the "clouds" and "fog".

Ideally (and I do use this term loosely), this tactic could be repeated throughout the battle in other areas of the Imperial Battle Line, and preferably without a specific pattern. After we've hit the middle, we could send the the mages to the left flank, and start firing the shots and right the etc. This would require a great degree of coordination with the strike groups as well, but just flinging tactical shots at an enemy doesn't do it anymore.

Besides, assuming we can get that Storm of Vengeance to work, the enemies center will be even more confused. Though its probably worth noting that we won't be able to cast of the clouds and fogs near the storm, since the wind will just blow them away.

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Re: Military Strategies

Postby Mr_Praetorian » Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:23 pm

(Come one guys, seriously. We may not all be tactics experts, but, surely, with the wealth of options before us, someone must have an idea to pitch in).

As for the deployment of our Battlemasters. My current plan to commit the majority of our remaining forces for the upcoming battle. The current breakdown is as follows:
Central Battle Line (In segments of): 7,000 (center), 4,000 (each flank)
Right Flank: 4,000
Left Flank: 4,000
"Cannon Fodder": 2,000
Reserves (not being used): 5,000

The CBL will be the force that will assault the Imperial Line, and will be broken into the three sub-segments featured above. The central segment of our CBL is strongest to account for the Crimson Brigade following behind. Though, I'm hoping that between the tactical spells, and the damage to half of the enemy's center, that our forces will be able to break through them with relatively light casualties.

On the approach, the two flanks will act as through they're moving along with the main bulk of the Battlemasters, but will be staggered and advancing off to the to the sides of the CBL. When the CBL engages the enemy, the two flanks will immediately move to quickly swing around the enemy's flanks and break their units in half. Two regiments to assault the rear of the flanks, and two regiments to assault Crimson Brigade.

If pulled off successfully, this plan will allow us to achieve local superiority against all segments of the enemies formation, to the order of*:
Theatre: (Eastern Alliance) vs. (Imperial/Norinth)
CBL: ~7,000 vs. ~5,000
Flank Lines: ~4,000(CBL sub-segment) + ~2,000 vs. ~5,000
Imperial Rearguard: ~2,000 + ~4,000 + ~5,000 (estimated remainder of CBL sub-segment) vs. ~5,000

*These assumptions do not take into account Long Ranger Fire, Tactical Spells, nor damage inflicted by enemy/friendly strike groups.

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Re: Military Strategies

Postby Zanaikin » Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:46 pm

( It's the weekday, so I won't really press anyone hard to post =P. I'm not going to go easy on the weekend though =P. Unless people comes up with drastically new ideas to discuss I'm going to start up the battle around Sunday )

Just to note, but you actually have ~31,500 Battlemasters.
And based on the casualties taken from last battle, the numbers here you give implies that the CBL flanks of 4,000 each will be either thinned out to extremity or utterly destroyed by the time they reach the Imperial line. Remember the two wings of the Imperial line is basically one Brigade each.

The three Imperial Battle lines form a front that's around 3~4 miles deep. I'm not completely sure about the width of it but expect that to be something like 7~10 miles. Trying to outmaneuver an enemy with superior speed, especially a double-envelopment since that's probably the most time-consuming of all maneuvering tactics, does not give a very high chance of success. Chances are the enemy will draw forces from other places to block your advance long before you reach envelopment position, so if that's your goal then all well and done, if that's not you may want to rethink this.

And yes, I wouldn't be telling you some of this if your character doesn't have Know[tactics], so no Drew it's not useless =P
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Re: Military Strategies

Postby TheDude51 » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:47 am

Approximately how much teleportation circle capacity do we have, and about how fast can the Battlemasters move through the circles?

Also, would it be possible to deploy a Tactical Teleportation Circle?
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Re: Military Strategies

Postby Zanaikin » Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:45 am

There's no exact count of "how many" circles, but any circle creates detracts from battle spell preparations, and less than 10 Eastern Alliance characters are capable of casting teleportation circle (maximum being cast at a time), and a regular circle can teleport through around 6~8 battlemasters at a time (per round effectively). Furthermore, casting of teleportation circles requires estimate of enemy's future possible location at least 3 minutes from present (for a Rapid Teleportation Circle), which is hardly always accurate. A Tactical Teleportation Circle however requires projecting enemy motion at least 30minutes into the future, which typically results in completely unreliable outputs unless the enemy keeps a very consistent velocity. Not to mention what I mentioned on blocking off a side of a teleportation circle if a bridgehead is not established. Thus because of this teleportation circles are usually used for only strategic movement, not tactical. Reason is simple - too many predictions, too much coordination and precision needed to make it successful, and too many things can go wrong when a circle is used as an attack bridgehead.

This is not to say that tactical movement is impossible with teleportation circles, but expects a certain degree of off-target porting. The less exact the end location needs to be, the better...
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Re: Military Strategies

Postby TheDude51 » Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:15 pm

Given the info on the size of the forces involved, the strategy I suggest would be to simply attack head on with the bulk of our battlemasters, hitting the entire Imperial front line directly. Our forces would be roughly divided into three segments to oppose the three enemy front line brigades.

I'm assuming that the battlemasters are currently spread as far apart as possible while advancing to minimize damage from AoOs, while still being concentrated enough to overwhelm the Imperial lines when they get there. I will call this spacing d, where d is the shortest distance maintained between any two battlemasters in the formation.

On the Left:
5,000 Battlemasters. These will have a spacing of 3d. While this means that they will probably not be able to decisively defeat the Imperial 22nd Brigade even if they engage, the huge spacing will minimize damage from artillery, given that the enemy will have to saturate 9 times the area that they normally would to inflict comparable casualties. Once these reach direct-fire distance of the enemy line, Kati will cover the entire left flank of the enemy with a Tactical Storm of Vengeance. The storm has a diameter of almost 3 miles when widened, and should allow the battlemasters to concentrate their forces a bit more as they make the final push, without worrying too much about enemy fire. If Twinned and Empowered, the storm will also deal a total of 18d6 damage to everything in its area, softening up the Imperial forces somewhat. This portion of the battle is designed to keep the

Center:
10,000 Battlemasters. Charge and attempt to break the center of the enemy formation.

Right Flank:
12,000 Battlemasters. Charge and attempt to break the right of the enemy formation.

Teleport Contingent:
5,000 Battlemasters. These will pour through teleportation circles to the middle and rear of the center and right of the enemy formation, sowing confusion and trying to prevent them from making an orderly retreat.

Reserve forces:
Sky Galleons Retribution, Radiance, and Vindicator; 3 Companies Crusaders. If mobile forces manage to finish their attacks on the artillery before the reserve is committed, they will join the reserve force.

Notes:
As long as the 22nd brigade remains entangled, this will give us a 2:1 local advantage over the 77th, 36th, and 38th brigades. If the Crimson Brigade commits, they can increase the Imperial strength to a 1:1 ratio in one of the two areas, including the Imperials' most elite forces. Hopefully the Misalenians of the reserve force will be able to keep the fight balanced against the Crimson Brigade.

The main worry I have is that the Daethelar's idea will fail and the Teleportation contingent will be unable to prevent the Imperials from executing a fighting retreat. If the enemy looks like they are pursuing this tactic, Kati will put another Tactical Storm of Vengeance over the 36th and 38th Brigades, slowing them to 1/4 of their normal speed and hopefully allowing the Battlemasters in the center to engage them decisively. If we are forced into this situation, destroying the enemy artillery will be even more vital. Without their artillery, the Imperials will hopefully have a difficult time inflicting heavy casualties while staying out of engagement range of the battlemasters, and we will be able to at least prevent them from achieving a decisive victory.

Tactical Spellcasting:
I would like to find some offensive area spells that the Imperials would not be able to disrupt with their counter-tactical firing maneuver. This means that anything involving physical energy "shots" that could be detonated by shrapnel will not work.
Ideas: Horrid Wilting; Weird
Of course, if the enemy warcaster shows up we'll have to devote all our power to countering her, so this might not be an issue.

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Re: Military Strategies

Postby Mr_Praetorian » Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:02 am

Not bad, thought I do have three primary concerns with this plan:

1. The entire strategy hinges up the left flank being entangled by that storm, which a well aimed dispel can halt instantaneously.

2. The amount of forces you're suggesting to throw at the enemy does not seem feasible. My fear is that in order for 22K troops to properly engage the enemy, you have the to either concentrate them so closely they'd practically be carrying each other, or you'd have to stagger them out so far that when they may it to the enemy they'd be to spread out to coordinate an effective attack.

3. This plan leaves virtually no reserves. I understand the situation we face, but throwing every single battlemaster into the assault seems like folly. This may be the decisive battle of the war, but that does not mean we should plan it as though it were the last battle of the war.

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Re: Military Strategies

Postby Laharl » Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:27 am

I have another issue: This is (for all intents and purposes) perfectly open, flat ground. Charging battlemasters across it? Pew pew go the Imperials, thud thud go the battlemasters. Mass teleports over a long distance (need some really good Spot checks to keep formation) are guaranteed to wind up with some inconsistencies anyway, so the formation would be blown at worst and screwed up at best. Not to mention, 1500' isn't that far for Imperial weapons (five-six increments for infantry, three for vehicles, but you know they have increment-penalty reducers, even without the mass of targets).

Responses (in support, mostly) to Drew's responses:
1: Imperials have shields. Shields block energy damage on the order of 100/round. Storm of Vengeance does energy damage.
2: Battle of <I forget>, Alexander. Used terrain to keep too many Persians from getting to his troops at once and carved them into meat. See the correlation?

Tactical Casting: Well...I think we rely a little too much on it, also, if their artillery can target our casters (miles long range, remember), they'll launch there as soon as the spell is detected.

I don't have too much constructive to offer, but I'll critique all day long. :P


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Re: Military Strategies

Postby TheDude51 » Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:35 am

As to terrain, I'm not sure how we CAN use it at all. The Imperials are way up in the air, and they can blast apart most terrain, like trees, that would provide cover.

Storm of Vengeance: Only 1/6 of the damage the Storm does is energy, the rest being from hail. Given that the Call Meteor was not blocked by the Imperial shields, I doubt that hail would be. A dispel seems unlikely, given the tremendous size of the storm and the need to locate the origin to dispel the whole thing. Kati has a very high CL too, so it would take a high-level commander to dispel the storm. I don't see the Storm as entirely vital, it simply helps somewhat.

On Tactical Spells: They are a significant resource, and it would be foolish not to utilize all of our resources in this decisive battle. Magical defenses have proven effective against the Imperial countermeasures, which seem to be mainly focused on disrupting the offensive capability of the tactical spell, so I see no reason not to try to find something effective for the War Magic Sections to do in the event that they aren't needed to disrupt the enemy Arvitor's casting.

As to the battlemasters being too many, remember that we have a seven mile front to attack along, and three dimensions to spread them out in rather than the usual two. We have pretty much as much room as we could possibly use to spread them out.

As to reserves, I'm not sure how effective they could be. Lacking long-range teleports, the battlemasters can't quickly respond to a threat, and if we leave behind enough in reserves to make a serious fighting force, our battle line forces would be seriously depleted. Also, any group of battlemasters held in reserve would make a perfect target for the Imperial artillery, which they would be helpless to respond to.
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Re: Military Strategies

Postby Mr_Praetorian » Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:32 pm

Well, Judson, if we're keeping reserves, we do have the option of moving to a different location, and, with Teleportation Circle capabilities, we can easily move them up if necessary. Why should we keep reserves in the first place? Suppose we loose, Judson, suppose the majority of Western Campaign forces are killed off. Do we really want to loose all of our BMs in one shot? We will be keeping some of our forces in reserve, because, as I said before, the most decisive battle is not necessarily the last one. Besides, who knows? We could very well win the day but still loose most of our ground forces. Bottom line: risking all of our soldiers in one shot is folly in a war that is far, far from decided, and neither is it necessarily wise. Want a historical example? Think of the Imperials as British Longbowmen, and us as the French army.

As for the primary strategy itself:

Based on casualty estimates from the last battle, the bulk if our BMs were taken down by Imperial artillery fire, and if I recall correctly, we lost about 3K in total from said attacks. Factoring in the additional battle-line behind them, we could be looking at as much 4,000-5,000 casualties per line of BMs, assuming we offer our forward lines no support. However, as we've noticed, once the BM's get into combat range, the battle becomes effectively one sided, and, given the difference in CR, a much smaller number of BMs can slaughter a much larger number of Imperials. So, from this, we can decipher that our primary goal is to get the BMs in combat range

Obviously we cannot rely on mere circumstance with regards to to our attack. So, lets take a moment to review what other resources we have available in this battle:

Air Fleet Strike Teams
Tactical Spells
Sky Galleons
Reserve Wings (Loaded with Crusaders)

If our goal is to get our BMs in range, then we must use our resources to distract the enemy, or prevent them from firing altogether. The Tactical Storm of Vengeance, Clouds, and Fogs can go a long way in forcing our enemy to maneuver in uncomfortable fashion. A series of Tactical Widened Cloudkill could force both of the enemy battle-lines to re-maneuver while other WMSs and the air ships could hammer the pile-ups with damaging spells. Other fun spells to consider:

Phantom Battle: Okay, so the actual effects of the spell aren't very interesting. Then again, forcing the enemy to redirect soldiers to aid in a battle that isn't actually happening could helpful, if not comical.

Incite Riot: Everyone in the area roles a will save, if they fail, they have to attack someone, even if its their friend. If only we could find a way to broadcast on their comm-links...

Now that I think about it, we should have gotten more Symbol of Insanity (boulders), and had the elves drop them off of their ships as they flew by. I don't suppose we have any Symbol of Insanity [items] do we?

Alright, enough banter, on with the actual proposal:

Our central battle line (CBL, will be broken into into 3 segments of 8,000 a piece. When the operation commences, the CBL will begin to advance upon the enemy, as they are nearing the enemy (within 3 miles or so), three things will happen in rapid succession:

1. A series of teleporation circles will open behind the enemy's double envelope (behind the Crimson Brigade), and Battlemasters will begin to pour through.

2. The Air Fleet Strike Teams will begin harassing and attacking the Crimson Brigade's missile carriers, heavy artillery. The primary cause for their attacks will not be to definitively challenge the enemy, but instead to provide and distractions for the BMs who are funneling in through the Teleporation Circles. When the BMs appear have made a foothold, they will break off and engage different artillery.

3. WMSs will move in and begin casting battlefield control spells (including Kati's Tactical Storm of Vengeance, and, while we're at it, let's have them throw out more illusionary BMs, it worked pretty well the last time). As the Imperials are maneuvering around the field of spells, the three Sky Galleons will begin to bombard the choke-points created by the spells. The mages will continue this patter until one of two things happens:
1. The BMs meet the enemy, at which point they will begin redirecting their spells towards the enemy's rearguard.
2. The enemy's tactical squad appears, at which point as many as necessary will move to counter it. The Sky Galleons will continue to pound the enemy, however.

Waiting for "hotspots" to flare up will be the reserve wing, which will be broken up into two groups. Each with 2 ships and 100 crusaders. Each once will be lead by a Misalinian command squad: One lead by party, and one lead by Cary's Squad (for the purposes if this strike, Derovarr urges Cary to take an addtional 2 Crusader Commanders from the detail being left behind at Blackbog to ensure that her squad packs more of a punch, he also lends her the Martial Script with War God's charge on it, should she need it (if she already has it, thats fine too).

For the sake of logistics:

CBL: 24,000 (broken into 3 segments).
Rear-distraction forces: 5,000
Reserves: 2,500

Thoughts?
Last edited by Mr_Praetorian on Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Military Strategies

Postby TheDude51 » Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:37 pm

I'm still somewhat doubtful about the effectiveness of tactical Solid Fogs, Cloudkills, and similar effects. Given the huge spacing that the Imperial forces keep between their men, and the high maneuverability of all their forces, they will not have a tremendous effect. Any conventional army would be devastated by such tactics, but the Imperials are perfectly equipped to simply avoid them.

Illusions are of dubious utility, given how quickly the Imperials discovered them the last time. When considering effects like Incite Riot and Symbol of Insanity, remember that the Imperials were trying to equip as many of their forces as possible with rings of Protection from Evil, which, while meant to counter the Battlemasters' insanity aura, would be equally effective against Incite Riot and Symbol of Insanity. Combined with the wide spacing of the enemy forces, such spells would have a greatly reduced impact. Given the altitude of this battle, I doubt that Caustic Mire would have much effect, and remember that damaging energy spells such as Fireball or others that would benefit from the acid fumes are exactly the kind of spell the Imperial anti-war magic firing pattern is designed to intercept, which was why I proposed alternatives such as Weird or Horrid Wilting.

Having evenly balanced forces across the line does have its advantages. It means we don't have to rely so much on the Storm of Vengeance entangling the 22nd Brigade, and we have to potential to devastate their entire battle line at once. However, it also means that, when the Crimson Blades are committed, they will have a much greater advantage in the area that they move to, and our forces will be hard-pressed to counter them. Also, remember that the casualty figures from last battle included the effect of our strikes destroying a large portion of the enemy artillery halfway through the advance. If the Air Fleet Strike Teams do not similarly cripple the enemy artillery this battle, we will face much, much higher casualties.

As to the reserves, I don't think they can effectively be used as a mobile force in this battle. It takes several minutes to cast the Teleportation Circle, and several more for the Battlemasters to slowly filter through. Also, such a tactic requires a large number of our most powerful casters to stay behind with the reserve force, preventing them from participating in the battle up to that point. If you want to keep them as insurance against our forces here being devastated, alright, but we won't be able to use them to alter the outcome of this battle, and any forces we keep back reduce our chances of victory here.
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