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Weird and Horrid Wilting are burst spells that require individual targetting, which makes them pretty much useless as tactical spells - a mage can't individual target across that range to that kind of precision, that's like asking a human brain to track as many targets as an aegis system.
as for the fogs, well everyone already expects their effects to be temporary. They won't create chokepoints though. The concept of trying to create a chokepoint in a 3 dimensional battle is laughable - there are way too many directions to turn. It's main job is simply to delay an opponent while they do have to change direction and circumvent around the fogs
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:58 pm
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Illusions are of dubious utility, given how quickly the Imperials discovered them the last time. When considering effects like Incite Riot and Symbol of Insanity, remember that the Imperials were trying to equip as many of their forces as possible with rings of Protection from Evil, which, while meant to counter the Battlemasters' insanity aura, would be equally effective against Incite Riot and Symbol of Insanity. Combined with the wide spacing of the enemy forces, such spells would have a greatly reduced impact. Given the altitude of this battle, I doubt that Caustic Mire would have much effect, and remember that damaging energy spells such as Fireball or others that would benefit from the acid fumes are exactly the kind of spell the Imperial anti-war magic firing pattern is designed to intercept, which was why I proposed alternatives such as Weird or Horrid Wilting.
Having evenly balanced forces across the line does have its advantages. It means we don't have to rely so much on the Storm of Vengeance entangling the 22nd Brigade, and we have to potential to devastate their entire battle line at once. However, it also means that, when the Crimson Blades are committed, they will have a much greater advantage in the area that they move to, and our forces will be hard-pressed to counter them. Also, remember that the casualty figures from last battle included the effect of our strikes destroying a large portion of the enemy artillery halfway through the advance. If the Air Fleet Strike Teams do not similarly cripple the enemy artillery this battle, we will face much, much higher casualties.
As to the reserves, I don't think they can effectively be used as a mobile force in this battle. It takes several minutes to cast the Teleportation Circle, and several more for the Battlemasters to slowly filter through. Also, such a tactic requires a large number of our most powerful casters to stay behind with the reserve force, preventing them from participating in the battle up to that point. If you want to keep them as insurance against our forces here being devastated, alright, but we won't be able to use them to alter the outcome of this battle, and any forces we keep back reduce our chances of victory here.
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:37 pm
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As for the primary strategy itself:
Based on casualty estimates from the last battle, the bulk if our BMs were taken down by Imperial artillery fire, and if I recall correctly, we lost about 3K in total from said attacks. Factoring in the additional battle-line behind them, we could be looking at as much 4,000-5,000 casualties per line of BMs, assuming we offer our forward lines no support. However, as we've noticed, once the BM's get into combat range, the battle becomes effectively one sided, and, given the difference in CR, a much smaller number of BMs can slaughter a much larger number of Imperials. So, from this, we can decipher that our primary goal is to get the BMs in combat range
Obviously we cannot rely on mere circumstance with regards to to our attack. So, lets take a moment to review what other resources we have available in this battle:
Air Fleet Strike Teams
Tactical Spells
Sky Galleons
Reserve Wings (Loaded with Crusaders)
If our goal is to get our BMs in range, then we must use our resources to distract the enemy, or prevent them from firing altogether. The Tactical Storm of Vengeance, Clouds, and Fogs can go a long way in forcing our enemy to maneuver in uncomfortable fashion. A series of Tactical Widened Cloudkill could force both of the enemy battle-lines to re-maneuver while other WMSs and the air ships could hammer the pile-ups with damaging spells. Other fun spells to consider:
Phantom Battle: Okay, so the actual effects of the spell aren't very interesting. Then again, forcing the enemy to redirect soldiers to aid in a battle that isn't actually happening could helpful, if not comical.
Incite Riot: Everyone in the area roles a will save, if they fail, they have to attack someone, even if its their friend. If only we could find a way to broadcast on their comm-links...
Now that I think about it, we should have gotten more Symbol of Insanity (boulders), and had the elves drop them off of their ships as they flew by. I don't suppose we have any Symbol of Insanity [items] do we?
Alright, enough banter, on with the actual proposal:
Our central battle line (CBL, will be broken into into 3 segments of 8,000 a piece. When the operation commences, the CBL will begin to advance upon the enemy, as they are nearing the enemy (within 3 miles or so), three things will happen in rapid succession:
1. A series of teleporation circles will open behind the enemy's double envelope (behind the Crimson Brigade), and Battlemasters will begin to pour through.
2. The Air Fleet Strike Teams will begin harassing and attacking the Crimson Brigade's missile carriers, heavy artillery. The primary cause for their attacks will not be to definitively challenge the enemy, but instead to provide and distractions for the BMs who are funneling in through the Teleporation Circles. When the BMs appear have made a foothold, they will break off and engage different artillery.
3. WMSs will move in and begin casting battlefield control spells (including Kati's Tactical Storm of Vengeance, and, while we're at it, let's have them throw out more illusionary BMs, it worked pretty well the last time). As the Imperials are maneuvering around the field of spells, the three Sky Galleons will begin to bombard the choke-points created by the spells. The mages will continue this patter until one of two things happens:
1. The BMs meet the enemy, at which point they will begin redirecting their spells towards the enemy's rearguard.
2. The enemy's tactical squad appears, at which point as many as necessary will move to counter it. The Sky Galleons will continue to pound the enemy, however.
Waiting for "hotspots" to flare up will be the reserve wing, which will be broken up into two groups. Each with 2 ships and 100 crusaders. Each once will be lead by a Misalinian command squad: One lead by party, and one lead by Cary's Squad (for the purposes if this strike, Derovarr urges Cary to take an addtional 2 Crusader Commanders from the detail being left behind at Blackbog to ensure that her squad packs more of a punch, he also lends her the Martial Script with War God's charge on it, should she need it (if she already has it, thats fine too).
For the sake of logistics:
CBL: 24,000 (broken into 3 segments).
Rear-distraction forces: 5,000
Reserves: 2,500
Thoughts?
Statistics: Posted by Mr_Praetorian — Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:32 pm
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Storm of Vengeance: Only 1/6 of the damage the Storm does is energy, the rest being from hail. Given that the Call Meteor was not blocked by the Imperial shields, I doubt that hail would be. A dispel seems unlikely, given the tremendous size of the storm and the need to locate the origin to dispel the whole thing. Kati has a very high CL too, so it would take a high-level commander to dispel the storm. I don't see the Storm as entirely vital, it simply helps somewhat.
On Tactical Spells: They are a significant resource, and it would be foolish not to utilize all of our resources in this decisive battle. Magical defenses have proven effective against the Imperial countermeasures, which seem to be mainly focused on disrupting the offensive capability of the tactical spell, so I see no reason not to try to find something effective for the War Magic Sections to do in the event that they aren't needed to disrupt the enemy Arvitor's casting.
As to the battlemasters being too many, remember that we have a seven mile front to attack along, and three dimensions to spread them out in rather than the usual two. We have pretty much as much room as we could possibly use to spread them out.
As to reserves, I'm not sure how effective they could be. Lacking long-range teleports, the battlemasters can't quickly respond to a threat, and if we leave behind enough in reserves to make a serious fighting force, our battle line forces would be seriously depleted. Also, any group of battlemasters held in reserve would make a perfect target for the Imperial artillery, which they would be helpless to respond to.
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:35 am
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Responses (in support, mostly) to Drew's responses:
1: Imperials have shields. Shields block energy damage on the order of 100/round. Storm of Vengeance does energy damage.
2: Battle of <I forget>, Alexander. Used terrain to keep too many Persians from getting to his troops at once and carved them into meat. See the correlation?
Tactical Casting: Well...I think we rely a little too much on it, also, if their artillery can target our casters (miles long range, remember), they'll launch there as soon as the spell is detected.
I don't have too much constructive to offer, but I'll critique all day long.
Statistics: Posted by Laharl — Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:27 am
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1. The entire strategy hinges up the left flank being entangled by that storm, which a well aimed dispel can halt instantaneously.
2. The amount of forces you're suggesting to throw at the enemy does not seem feasible. My fear is that in order for 22K troops to properly engage the enemy, you have the to either concentrate them so closely they'd practically be carrying each other, or you'd have to stagger them out so far that when they may it to the enemy they'd be to spread out to coordinate an effective attack.
3. This plan leaves virtually no reserves. I understand the situation we face, but throwing every single battlemaster into the assault seems like folly. This may be the decisive battle of the war, but that does not mean we should plan it as though it were the last battle of the war.
Alternative Strategy Formulation in Progress.
Statistics: Posted by Mr_Praetorian — Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:02 am
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I'm assuming that the battlemasters are currently spread as far apart as possible while advancing to minimize damage from AoOs, while still being concentrated enough to overwhelm the Imperial lines when they get there. I will call this spacing d, where d is the shortest distance maintained between any two battlemasters in the formation.
On the Left:
5,000 Battlemasters. These will have a spacing of 3d. While this means that they will probably not be able to decisively defeat the Imperial 22nd Brigade even if they engage, the huge spacing will minimize damage from artillery, given that the enemy will have to saturate 9 times the area that they normally would to inflict comparable casualties. Once these reach direct-fire distance of the enemy line, Kati will cover the entire left flank of the enemy with a Tactical Storm of Vengeance. The storm has a diameter of almost 3 miles when widened, and should allow the battlemasters to concentrate their forces a bit more as they make the final push, without worrying too much about enemy fire. If Twinned and Empowered, the storm will also deal a total of 18d6 damage to everything in its area, softening up the Imperial forces somewhat. This portion of the battle is designed to keep the
Center:
10,000 Battlemasters. Charge and attempt to break the center of the enemy formation.
Right Flank:
12,000 Battlemasters. Charge and attempt to break the right of the enemy formation.
Teleport Contingent:
5,000 Battlemasters. These will pour through teleportation circles to the middle and rear of the center and right of the enemy formation, sowing confusion and trying to prevent them from making an orderly retreat.
Reserve forces:
Sky Galleons Retribution, Radiance, and Vindicator; 3 Companies Crusaders. If mobile forces manage to finish their attacks on the artillery before the reserve is committed, they will join the reserve force.
Notes:
As long as the 22nd brigade remains entangled, this will give us a 2:1 local advantage over the 77th, 36th, and 38th brigades. If the Crimson Brigade commits, they can increase the Imperial strength to a 1:1 ratio in one of the two areas, including the Imperials' most elite forces. Hopefully the Misalenians of the reserve force will be able to keep the fight balanced against the Crimson Brigade.
The main worry I have is that the Daethelar's idea will fail and the Teleportation contingent will be unable to prevent the Imperials from executing a fighting retreat. If the enemy looks like they are pursuing this tactic, Kati will put another Tactical Storm of Vengeance over the 36th and 38th Brigades, slowing them to 1/4 of their normal speed and hopefully allowing the Battlemasters in the center to engage them decisively. If we are forced into this situation, destroying the enemy artillery will be even more vital. Without their artillery, the Imperials will hopefully have a difficult time inflicting heavy casualties while staying out of engagement range of the battlemasters, and we will be able to at least prevent them from achieving a decisive victory.
Tactical Spellcasting:
I would like to find some offensive area spells that the Imperials would not be able to disrupt with their counter-tactical firing maneuver. This means that anything involving physical energy "shots" that could be detonated by shrapnel will not work.
Ideas: Horrid Wilting; Weird
Of course, if the enemy warcaster shows up we'll have to devote all our power to countering her, so this might not be an issue.
Thoughts?
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:15 pm
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This is not to say that tactical movement is impossible with teleportation circles, but expects a certain degree of off-target porting. The less exact the end location needs to be, the better...
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:45 am
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Also, would it be possible to deploy a Tactical Teleportation Circle?
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:47 am
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Just to note, but you actually have ~31,500 Battlemasters.
And based on the casualties taken from last battle, the numbers here you give implies that the CBL flanks of 4,000 each will be either thinned out to extremity or utterly destroyed by the time they reach the Imperial line. Remember the two wings of the Imperial line is basically one Brigade each.
The three Imperial Battle lines form a front that's around 3~4 miles deep. I'm not completely sure about the width of it but expect that to be something like 7~10 miles. Trying to outmaneuver an enemy with superior speed, especially a double-envelopment since that's probably the most time-consuming of all maneuvering tactics, does not give a very high chance of success. Chances are the enemy will draw forces from other places to block your advance long before you reach envelopment position, so if that's your goal then all well and done, if that's not you may want to rethink this.
And yes, I wouldn't be telling you some of this if your character doesn't have Know[tactics], so no Drew it's not useless =P
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:46 pm
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As for the deployment of our Battlemasters. My current plan to commit the majority of our remaining forces for the upcoming battle. The current breakdown is as follows:
Central Battle Line (In segments of): 7,000 (center), 4,000 (each flank)
Right Flank: 4,000
Left Flank: 4,000
"Cannon Fodder": 2,000
Reserves (not being used): 5,000
The CBL will be the force that will assault the Imperial Line, and will be broken into the three sub-segments featured above. The central segment of our CBL is strongest to account for the Crimson Brigade following behind. Though, I'm hoping that between the tactical spells, and the damage to half of the enemy's center, that our forces will be able to break through them with relatively light casualties.
On the approach, the two flanks will act as through they're moving along with the main bulk of the Battlemasters, but will be staggered and advancing off to the to the sides of the CBL. When the CBL engages the enemy, the two flanks will immediately move to quickly swing around the enemy's flanks and break their units in half. Two regiments to assault the rear of the flanks, and two regiments to assault Crimson Brigade.
If pulled off successfully, this plan will allow us to achieve local superiority against all segments of the enemies formation, to the order of*:
Theatre: (Eastern Alliance) vs. (Imperial/Norinth)
CBL: ~7,000 vs. ~5,000
Flank Lines: ~4,000(CBL sub-segment) + ~2,000 vs. ~5,000
Imperial Rearguard: ~2,000 + ~4,000 + ~5,000 (estimated remainder of CBL sub-segment) vs. ~5,000
*These assumptions do not take into account Long Ranger Fire, Tactical Spells, nor damage inflicted by enemy/friendly strike groups.
Opinions?
Statistics: Posted by Mr_Praetorian — Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:23 pm
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Ideally (and I do use this term loosely), this tactic could be repeated throughout the battle in other areas of the Imperial Battle Line, and preferably without a specific pattern. After we've hit the middle, we could send the the mages to the left flank, and start firing the shots and right the etc. This would require a great degree of coordination with the strike groups as well, but just flinging tactical shots at an enemy doesn't do it anymore.
Besides, assuming we can get that Storm of Vengeance to work, the enemies center will be even more confused. Though its probably worth noting that we won't be able to cast of the clouds and fogs near the storm, since the wind will just blow them away.
Thoughts?
Statistics: Posted by Mr_Praetorian — Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:29 pm
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It's time for you guys to start thinking about detailed plans, and not just general planning.
A few things to think about:
What numbers are involved in each attack - the main attack, how many branches of the main attack, how many teleportation/entangling attacks and how much to send, how many teleportation circles to propose opening, if there are any specific operations / special maneuvers you'd like to pre-plan, etc etc.
Just something to ponder about in meantime...
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:53 am
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Both armies on the Eastern Campaign side are fully Airborne. All Imperial units are airborne, I believe I've clarified that a dozen times. That includes ALL of their vehicles, including their artillery.
Same goes for most of the alliance side forces, even if some of them have a limited airborne combat duration (like the Battlemasters and their Air Walk which lasts for over 2hrs without my weird round(action/duration time)-to-(actual)time translation - which is enough for most purposes.)
And if anyone is hanging onto the notion artillery shells only burst upon impact (I hope there aren't anyways), I'd like to point you to altitude trigger shells (available back in WW2) and proximity shells.
So for all purposes, terrain doesn't matter as much in a war like this. You could be fighting over the ocean for all that matters. Although mountains and forests and such will still provide cover/concealment for troops that stay on land rather than go airborne.
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:27 pm
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Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:38 am
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I'm sorry if this slows things down, but I'm just too damned busy.
Statistics: Posted by Mr_Praetorian — Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:54 pm
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http://zanaikin.major-arcana.org/upload ... orinth.jpg
The circles are cities (obviously). Norinth has only six cities (west-to-east): Starfell, Fairwinter, Trias, Aurora, Fimbulrift, Borea
The triangles are noncity fortifications.
Longstanding : Trias Pass, Tower of Shadows
Imperial Bases (organized by its unit number) : 22A, 22B, 22C, 36A, 36B, 36C, 77A, 77B, 38, N1A, N1B, N2A, N2B, Crimson
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:03 pm
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20 Battlemasters, each with 5 METAAC Grenades. One Rod of Greater Chaining required per three squads.
Prior to the battle, they are stationed near either Jens or a high-level Airindale mage. As the battle starts, they are covered with a Chained Superior Invisibility and the squads are spread across the battle line.
When a METAAC squad attacks the line, the Grenadiers spread out and approach within striking distance hidden by their Invisibility, using METAAC grenades while staying mobile and spread out until the targets are disabled.
Cost Per Squad:
35,100*20*5*(1/10)*(1/2)+(1/3)*(121,500) = 216,000gp per squad
I realize this is expensive, but we have tens of millions of gp in our war chest and they aren't doing any good just sitting there. I would recommend that we equip and train (program?) at least 5 squads, possibly as many as a dozen, before our first major battle.
Also, i'd like to distribute a large number of Disintegration grenades to our battle line forces so that they can quickly and efficiently deal with vehicles that they can reach.
(See "Samael's Research" thread for descriptions of the item. Cost takes into accound discounts from mass production and the cost of buying one greater rod of metamagic, Chain, for every three squads to put up the Superior Invisibility. A high-level mage will need to supply the spell slot.)
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:50 am
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The only issue I have is whether 1000 battlemasters will be enough. Kovis used 4,000 to assault a lair of similar size, and still suffered 10% casualties. 1000 may not be enough to shatter the orc defenses as decisively as we would like, and such a force could conceivably be repulsed by a determined defense by the orc clans.
We'll also have to make sure to deploy the aerial assault force correctly. The hidering spells especially will be completely useless if they are not cast directly onto the entry to the lair.
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:18 pm
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Warmagi: The single, half-strength company we possess.
Battlemasters: For the sake of simplicity, 1000 shall be pulled from Thatal Keep. They will be split into 3 groups, and 100 shall be held in reserve.
Statistics: Posted by Mr_Praetorian — Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:39 pm
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Goal: Complete elimination of enemy forces.
Basic Idea: To use the elements of panic and confusion to draw the bulk of our enemies elite troops into a battle near the air entrance to the lair, while the bulk of their warriors are tied up engaging the battlemasters in the tunnels. Shortly after the battlemasters engage the enemy in the tunnels, the command squad and about 5 squads of crusaders will make a faint surgical strike into the ariel entrance, not a full engagement, just enough to draw them out. Waiting for those who chase us out will be the remaining crusaders and mages, who will proceed to blast them. The retribution will be stationed nearby to help convince them to fly out should it be required, and her two dropships will aid the skirmishers in keeping an eye on the surrounding area.
Exit Strategy: Dropships will pick up skirmisher companies, while the command squad and any present members of the captain's company will act a rearguard for retreating crusaders and magi. Battlemasters will withdraw to the point where we teleported them in, and will be teleported out under the protection of the command squad and compliment.
Troops needed:
150 Crusaders
50 Mages
50 Skirmishers
Retribution
900 Battlemasters (split into 3 groups)
Phase 0: All forces into position. Retribution will remain cloaked until engaged.
Phase 1: Battlemasters engage enemy in tunnels.
Phase 2: Command Squad, crusaders, and mages will move towards the ariel entrance, and, if in range, begin to engage any enemies within the vicinity.
Phase 3: Mage and crusaders groups will take position as the command squad and compliments move to coerce the enemy to engagement.
Phase 3.5: In the instance that the enemy is already airborne and mobilized (which, given the scenario, is likely) , the command squad and compliments will move to engage 'said forces while the remaining forces will use a combination of spells and glyphic grenades to create a field of hindering magical effects (walls of "x", solid fog, etc) to slow the advance of more enemies. In this way, enemies prepared to handle such hinderances will be separated from their less "buffed" troops and will be easier to take down.
Phase 4: Victory/Defeat
Notes:
Based on what we've learned from previous battles will the Fensdwellers using the battlemasters, they are extremely effective, but also have a tendency to cause high civilian casualties. This is unfortunate, but not easily remedied. Battlemasters will be instructed to attack only threatening targets, but there does not seem to be much that can be done.
In the event that potential threats are detected by the skirmishers, the nearest dropship will move in to pick of the party (ies) that are closest to the "threat". Actual to reaction to 'said threat will have to be determined at the time.
Statistics: Posted by Mr_Praetorian — Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:24 am
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Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:50 pm
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--I figure Battlemasters have absolutely no need for Combat Expertise / Improved - not exactly fitting for them to fight defensively. So I'm allowing the players some choice regarding their own troops - what feats to replace it with.
Currently I'm leaning towards Empowered Spell-like Ability for at least one of them (exact spell to select? decent options: Mass Resist Energy (+50% resist), Expeditious Movement (+40ft more speed), or Dimension Door (longer teleports)).
Thoughts?
Links to the sheet (not necessarily newest ver.) can be found in my 'Maps' link in sig.
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:05 pm
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Also: ARCANE SIGHT!!!
Statistics: Posted by Mr_Praetorian — Mon May 12, 2008 3:51 pm
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I'd like to point out a few things from the encounter. As I was saying to drew, yesterday's mission wasn't designed to be anywhere as hard as it turned out to be. There were a few assumptions I've made that I thought would have been obvious precautionary measures to take that... you didn't:
(before anyone bring up the point that I could have warned you, and that your chars should have known what they were doing better than the players, or whatever. However, the DM's job is not to think in that perspective, thus it is not the DM's job to remember what your characters should do [or if I should give you WIS/INT checks for hints], because I'm preoccupied enough as it is figuring out what's the opposing response to each action you take)
1. Given that the outpost was hidden underground beneath numerous illusions and covered by automatic defenses, might have it also occurred that the base might have measures of alerting others and calling forth reinforcements? Forget Imperial digital detection systems which your characters do not even have an understanding of, no one even bothered checking for basic Alarm spells which may be linked up to a comm.link somewhere (the comm.rings should tell you they have more than enough magitech for something simple like that), or thought of possibly taking precautionary measures against any Imperial equivalent. There's a reason why Arcane Sight is on infiltration staves, and we went over the procedure during the Blackbog mission.
Also: Telepathic Static also helps in jamming any alert systems, since it blocks all magical communications except spells which expressively state verbal effects (like Whispering Wind, which carries sound rather than pure mental message).
2. Even with wards disabled, once you start destroying stuff you should be able to expect possible alerts to the enemy. Contingency effects are hardly new to D&D, and one can easily tie it to an object (or if you're technical about WOTC sources, an animated but motionless object), to send a message upon destruction. And of course, once again, the Imperials might have the same thing in their high-tech version. I'm not saying you guys didn't prepare yourselves for a fight (which you did), but far as I can tell you didn't notice the time when an attack would have been most likely, or you would have raised (at least the lower lvl ones) 1rnd/lvl buffs. The fact you opponents did, and had buffs like Find the Gap and Arcane Spellsurge out, tipped the scales against you all heavily.
3. Contrary to how Marty complains, Superior Invisibility isn't useless. For pretty much only bosses (or high lvl commando squads) can see Sup Invisi, and then only when they're in True Seeing range, which means they're also in YOUR true sight range. I know it's impossible to put Sup. Invisi. on Drew due to his armor, but you could have done better than have half the party who's not invisi'd standing out in the middle of nowhere with a lack of cover (there's nothing except scattered rocks and shrubs in the area, as I keep mentioning). At least put an illusion (say, a large dirt mound) over them or something.
However, in close-combat between two opposing high lvl squads, Super Invisibility IS useless. But it still provides protection against long range units like spellsnipers, and grants much better chance of avoiding detection in first place (note that those Sup. Invisi'd were not struck during initial rounds of combat).
4. Superior Invisibility's use is common practice amongst high level units, everyone knows this, and it would be foolish to assume the NPCs don't, just as they know the range of True Seeing spells. Thus, certain types of units (assassins, in this case) have good reason to stay outside 120' range of their target when keeping watch on them. Heck, the careful ones might even stay outside 240', but anything more than Enlarged True Seeing is too unlikely.
In the case of yesterday, the lesser can't afford Sup. Invisibility, so they settled for normal invisi + hiding behind rocks. Of course, it's a sheer coincidence that Judson was the only one who went in (this was not planned at all), since he's the only one who had both the See Invisi up and the spot checks to maybe beat their hide at that distance (Drew didnt have the former up atm).
Also: Probably would have been a good idea to leave a Prying Eyes / Greater screen in the area to guard against unpleasantries (not to mention an Anticipate Teleportation).
5. Btw, this usually isn't utilized so I'm not surprised no-one guards against it. But I'd just like to note no-one ever seems to put up any form of Divination detecting/countering effect, like Detect Scrying, Screen, False Visions, etc. Between Greatery Scrying and Scry Location, information detection goes a long way. And anyone with an appreciation of both ancient and modern military tactics should know this: Information is 1st step in achieving victory. Because without it, all tactics are useless. I learned the importance on this myself in a UVA campaign when our DM's BBEG constantly scryed us, and constantly ambushed us with minion whereever we went, until he got annoyed and had a wizard NPC dropped a hint to put up Detect Scrying.
Put all these together and tell me you didn't deserve to get ambushed. Because Jens showed very easily during his round that if you didn't lose surprise round to a bunch of assassin builds (maximize damage output in a small period of time by dumping resources on attack, rather than conserving for defense/long-term fighting), there was no way you would have been anywhere near as badly hurt.
Also... Foresight works wonders.
The morale of the story is. Yeah optimized combat abilities/spells are great and all in a straight fight. But if you don't have utility spells covered, the enemy has more than enough opportunity to gain a circumstantial, informational, and/or tactical advantage against you that eliminates every advantage you once held over him. This is precisely why I consider utility mages one of the most important roles in any party, contrary to typical party-building philosophy (which, after all, is designed for dungeon crawls, not grand adventures and epic battles).
I believe I once (and probably more than once) told you guys that veteran D&D players don't rely on character optimization to win, they rely on knowing how to play, and that a top notch D&D player can kill a typical munchkin even with a normal build.
A good example: last time two lvl13 PCs took on ten lvl10 NPCs in my UVA game, whose builds would have easily overwhelmed us in a normal confrontation. Yet we seized a victory, and the deciding factor had been: caltrops and tall-grass.
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Mon May 12, 2008 2:03 pm
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FENS LOSSES:
23 White Dragonlancers
~185 Siege Weapons
~225 Draconic Mages
~330 Hill Giants
~1850 Bugbears
~4,250 Goblins Lightfoots
~280 Goblin Cavalry
FENS FORCES REMAINING:
1 White Dragonlancers [Retreated]
~15 Siege Weapons [Abandoned]
~75 Blue & White Draconic Mages [Retreated]
~70 Hill Giants [Fled: 20][Retreated: 50]
~150 Bugbears [Retreated: 150]
~750 Goblin Lightfoots [Fled: 700][Retreated: 50]
~220 Goblin Cavalry [Fled: 70][Retreated: 150]
Notes from Opposition Command:
The new Misalin command seems to be afraid of incurring heavy losses, as they seem to refuse devoting troops to the field. Raids have shown that in the event of a commando raid they automatically pull lesser units back and rely upon their command squads. Their strikes also utilize only their command squads.
A possible breakthrough would be available by making several elite-unit strikes. After the enemy pulls back their infantry to minimize losses, push forward and overwhelm the enemy positions before they can be recalled. Entangle their command squads with our own to prevent them from patching the hole.
Opposition Reactions to April20th Strike Operation:
•After Andrei’s air dragons engage, white dragonlance captain and three squads (10 total) heads to engage him. Leaving the slowest dragon squadron maintaining patrol route over the river as a rapid response unit in case anything happens. Communication over for possibly drawing the last squad over depending on Andrei’s attack seriousness and if another attack shows up (Trelling’s defenders have coordinated the dragon attack with that airship during the first day which lead to seriously losses). With Andrei and his dragon’s true capabilities exploited during the fire storm raid, it is unlike that the dragonlance will bring him down easily. Chief will personally head over and use a Shadow Gate to summon forth shadow balors, using their long range spells (like Horrid Wilting) and ability to teleport at will to take during the air dragon’s superior maneuverability. Meanwhile chief will pummel Andrei with a multitude of spells personally.
•After the three distraction squads engage, regional commanders are directed to utilize their ranged troops (lot’s of goblin crossbows and sharpshooters available) guard mages to knock out the steeds/riders. There should be no need for the main squads regarding a threat of this level. However should any of the squads prove particular resistant to attacks a response squad may be called in.
•After the five mage squads engage, the response squads go into full action. The assault squad will directly strike at Kelmik’s squad, the frostmaster squad will engage another, and two other response squads & dragon squad will engage other mage squads. Provide heavy ground support if possible (if the useless goblins aren’t routing already). Teleportation will enter from 200ft+ range as normal to allow medium-spell-range but maximum distance for protection (which also makes the anticipate spells useless). Assault squad however will teleport in directly atop them and hammer away. Simultaneous attacks by multiple smaller squadrons means this may be a second layer distraction, thus the assault, frostmaster, and dragon squads are to be prepared to move to new location at any time.
•Once the tactical-spell charge effect is noticed, the assault, frostmaster, and dragon squads immediately pulls out and re-engage.
For the final attack, I was planning these things:
--The west side of the city was disregarded since the beginning, it was too easy to fortify and bobby-trap. The plan includes freezing the river and then using ramps of stone (stonewall, for non-frostfell troops) and just sheer crossing the ice (frostfell troops). Ramp across the walls in key positions and overwhelm the defense before they can draw reserves from east city.
--Launch a illusionary but partially real attack from the east, with coordinating mage-squad attack on walls as a feint before the main rush, to draw defensive reserves towards the east.
--Teleport the reserve battlerager and berserker units from the west line over (~1500) after dark and use them as the first wave to rush the walls. Hopefully, the defense will not be prepared to handle them...
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:41 am
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If I were the enemy commander, the tactic would go something like this:
First, send a wave of illusionary forces in a frontal assault on the walls, making sure to have them respond appropriately to incoming fire. Lots of mixed illusionary and real Dark Ways set up over the moat, and illusionary troops start pouring over the top. Main objective here is to draw out tactical spells, although making us waste dispels and spell slots in general is, of course, helpful.
Then, form up an attack group made up of all the remaining dragonlancers, The Squad, the Frostmaster, and the enemy Commander. Create 2 or more illusionary duplicates of this group, sending them to attack first, perhaps with a few standard mages in the group to make it able to deal damage. These are to provoke an enemy response and try to get strike teams out of position.
Then the real attack group strikes. Dragons use their breathe weapons to simply blast through any normal troops that they find, while mages can be annihilated with Frostfells or the like. Balors are also summoned to help the group. They simply rampage across the city until our losses are so severe that holding the city is no longer an option. Their men at that point simply walk in.
In addition, they could detach a single frostmaster from that group, and have him simply begin blasting the walls. We would be forced to respond personally: no one else can kill him, and unchecked even a single frostmaster can obliterate multiple companies of our best troops.
Personally, I'm not quite sure what we could do to defeat this kind of tactic. We can arrange troops to minimize losses, but aside from that theres really no option but a head-on confrontation, and that would not be pretty.
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:25 pm
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2.
When the enemy is too strong to be attacked directly, then attack something he holds dear. Know that in all things he cannot be superior. Somewhere there is a gap in the armour, a weakness that can be attacked instead.
8.
Deceive the enemy with an obvious approach that will take a very long time, while surprising him by taking a shortcut and sneak up to him. As the enemy concentrates on the decoy, he will miss you sneaking up to him.
15.
Never directly attack an opponent whose advantage is derived from its position. Instead lure him away from his position thus separating him from his source of strength.
Statistics: Posted by Mr_Praetorian — Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:52 pm
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there are other methods of siege warfare. A few pointers I will give in thirty-six strategies tactics #2, #8, and #15.
all in all, the last attack did indeed damage your elites badly, as losses (post-resurrection) includes 9 pegasi, 6 pegasi cavaliers, and 4 phantom knights. Karhedros' four elven mage squads also took about 25% losses during that battle (most of it from the squad that met the enemy assault squad). With the dragon knights completely lost and the remaining aerial cavalry at half strength, yes there are a few things you must plan contingencies for.
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:23 pm
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1. Full Circle Siege: Out of the question, they'd need at least 4-6 times as many troups and siege to pull this one off.
2. Into the Breach!: Hammer one area extremely hard and then rush in all available forces into the gap. More effective for there numbers, but it also forces what little they have into a bottleneck, which given the use of magic on both sides, is a bad plan outright.
3. Battle of the Elites: Gather the strongest assets you can muster, and attack the defenders commanders chain. This one can be brutally effective if done right (read: Lessik), but also presents them with considerable risk (the risk of losing the battle on this front).
Also, Judson, we lost all of the dragons. With their Lord vanquished and their riders slain, there is no longer any true reaon for them to remain alongside us. On a lighter note, the Retribution should be returning soon.
Statistics: Posted by Mr_Praetorian — Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:03 pm
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After thinking of possible enemy strategies, we can think of ways we could counter them.
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:25 pm
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Although the enemies conventional forces suffered heavily in our last raid, their elite units remianed virtually untouched, while ours suffered heavy losses.
Overview of remaining forces (dai, please correct this if anything is mistaken):
Basic foot:
Us: 1,700 militia lightfoots
Them: 2,000 goblin lightfoots
These forces are about evenly matched, and the amount of fortifications we have should tip the fight in our favor.
Elite Ground Troops:
Us: Around 600, including shock companies, crusaders, and a banner of heavy cavalry (now lacking pegasi)
Them: 400 bugbears, 110 giants
Our basic elite forces are about even, but the giants are certainly much more powerful than most of our elites, and the bugbears may be a bit more powerful. We are probably at a slight disadvantage here.
Mages
Us: 200 war-wizards, plus 150 or so trained warmages
Them: 200 Draconic Orcs
We have a significant numerical advantage here, outnumbering them nearly two to one. However, the bulk of our mages are nearly untrained Archeron war-wizards, who are probably not nearly a match for the Draconic Orcs.
Dragons:
Us: nothing
Them: 10 White dragonlancers
The enemy now has complete air superiority, and dealing with the dragons should be a high priority of any plan
Characters:
Us: PCs, Garris, Kelmik (Konstantin and Kilar are most likely in no shape to fight)
Them: Shadowmage Commander, 2 Frostmasters, 1 Booster, Champion and Sniper/Bloodstorm Blade
The main threat to our army here is the Frostmasters and Shadow Mage, who could probably destroy most of our army alone given the chance. The champion and his men are mainly a threat to only us and other low-number elites, however they will probably be paired with their frostmaster to defend him, and there is a chance the second frostmaster will join their squad.
Tactical Spells:
Us: Karhedros, Tactical Spell Squad
Them: Unknown
We currently have no idea what the enemy's potential for tactical spells is, but with the number of draconic mages and high-level casters they it is entirely possible.
We also have the airship, which could be a decisive factor, although it has proved rather fragile in the past.
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:19 pm
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Dave:
- Using Crushed, heated glass catapult shots
Operation Mayhem (secondary) (symbols of insanity with earthquakes and nukes, one of the preliminary raids)
Drew:
--Mine the hill, rune fields, spellglyphs, etc
--Initial planning
--Scatterbolt- ballista bolts that explode in midflight into hundreds of smaller bolts
--Train Officers
--Operation Smack-A-Ho: strategy to kill champion with multiple WMCs and immediate action retreats
--Take Control of Balor situation (pre battle)
Marty:
River Earthquakes, used to destroy seige engines on barges
Earthquaking the roads.
Scott:
Training Mages
Karhedros:
Final Raid detailed plans- tactical firestorms
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:30 am
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I'll assume all the tactical planning took up whatever late-night time was left to you guys (you'll still have a slot open for RPing which several people have taken use of). But overall the planning meeting will go until about midnight.
Attendees: The entire Misalin command squad (all of you), Garris, Andrei, Konstantin, Kelmik (Archeron mage commander), Coric (FoM cavalry/pegasi commander), Aelle (MG skirmisher commander), plus a few subcommanders of the other squads.
Karhedros' Tactical Squad:
Composition: Karhedros, two CR14 blaster mages (from his old elven troops).
if you're including the tactical spell squad:
Tactical Spell Squad: 1 Scout (spotter), 2 Incantantrix, 1 Abjurer, 1 Healer, 3 Blasters, 1 Tactical Mage. Yes one of the incantantrix will be able to add empower to the fire storm.
Distraction Squad (3 Squads).
Composition Each: One CR11~12 wizard, two skirmishers
NPC Comments: There's no purposes in inserting a single mage into the enemy camp only to go into full defense. The enemy command probably won't take it as a serious threat and only send a local patrol unit or mage on duty to counter it. Better to have each squad ride into enemy camp mounted on phantom steeds in tight formation (for teleporting out), with one skirmisher in each squadron carrying a symbol of insanity.
Although, due to the level of wizardry required to cast a greater anticipate spells, this puts a significant drain upon the mage squad's ability to deal damage (which Kelmik complains very obviously about after losing most of his better mages).
Mage Squad (5 squads)
Composition Squad 1: Kelmik, four of his subordinate mages (CR9~13)
Composition Squad 2,3,4,5: Four/five elven Blaster Mages (CR9~13), each covered by five assault mages (CR9~14).
NPC Comment: With your permission of course Karhedros. These elven mages are after all, in our pay but under your command. Five assault mages posted to each squad should be enough to swap off any mage-on-watch or patrol squad from interfering.
Note: By assault mages, which shall become a future DM terminology, he means mages with primary practice is to support melee/ranged with spells. Most have only limited wide-area blasting, although Airindale assault mages may have more for their imbue arrow abilities.
Assault Squad
Composition: Garris & 9 Phantom Knights, Coric & 9 Pegasi Cavalry, Derovarr, Ranmor, Jens, Kati, Ulrich.
NPC Comment: I thought Derovarr was staying behind in case of an emergency? Given the long ranged sending limitations of the commander rings, if we fall under attack it takes 1 min to send out a msg, 1 min that those engaged in combat does not have.
Also, I'd say this squad has more than neccessary. It would be a help if we can pinpoint the enemy's assault squad and crush them with sheer force, but other than that this is a waste of concentrated manpower.
Note: You can't ready a War Master's Charge, that's a full-round action.
Air Dragon Squad
Composition: Andrei & 7 Dragon Knights
NPC Comment: We'll do our best to draw away the enemy White Dragons. However that can't be completely guaranteed (given how the enemy commander reacts) since the enemy should still have 13 dragonlancers remaining, thus they could leave a patrol squad for cover and still have numerical advantage against the air dragons.
DM Comment: Very well done, I'm impressed by how well organized the entire thing is. I'm guessing these are the results of that AIM 'discussion panel' on thursday?
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:38 pm
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Objective: Distraction and possible entanglement of enemy dragons/response teams, possible minor damage
Composition: 8 Air Dragon Knights
Method:
Andrei does whatever he wants in order to best accomplish his objective.
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:38 pm
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Objective: Destroy high-power targets, engage response teams
Composition: Phantom Knights, Pegasus Riders, Garris, Derovarr, Ranmor, Jens, Kati, Ulrich
Method:
Casters in group launch coordinated barrage at a group of giants. Each round, Ranmor readies an action to warmaster’s charge a teleporting enemy while Derovarr readies an action to use Moment of Alacrity if an enemy teleports in. If engaging dragons, Derovarr can instead use Warmaster’s charge to attack them. In this case Ranmor must make sure to stay within 60 feet of the melee force at all times and to always have a readied Warmaster’s Charge.
Insertion:
The Assault Squad will teleport in to the side of the enemy line of advance, moving closer via flight and selecting a target as they approach. If no giants are near the outside of the column, they can instead target dragons.
Contingency:
If the Assault Squad destroys its target without being engaged by the enemy response teams, it spits into two groups. Group 1 consists of Ranmor and the Phantom Knights, who move at top speed to engage a second target. Group 2 follows more slowly, preparing to teleport to the aid of Group 1 if the enemy response squad engages them.
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:38 pm
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Objective: Inflict maximum damage on enemy forces
Composition: 9-10 elven blasters and assault mages.
Method:
Small group of casters fly together across enemy formations. Use standard attack spells at enemies, matching correct spell to correct enemies. Fireballs/Cloudkills on goblins, Incite Riot on bugbears or giants. More powerful spells if they are available. One caster in each group does not attack. Instead, every round he readies an action to teleport the entire group away if dragons or response teams attack them. He also teleports them away if they face heavy resistance of any kind.
Note: Teleporter’s actions are not fixed. He should be selected for his good judgement and given the responsibility of keeping his squad out of harm’s way. Specific methods are left up to him, the above are simply suggestions.
Note: It may become necessary to split each squad into two teams, which support each other but each have their own teleporter.
Insertion:
The Mage Squad teleports in to an essentially random position overtop of the enemy army, attacking the closest targets. Once inserted, they will move or use short-range teleportation to attack the best targets.
Contingency:
Mage Squads that teleport choose to either fully disengage, moving back to Trelling, or to Dimension Door/Teleport to another portion of the battlefield to continue the attack. Decision is left to the teleporting mage, although if a general retreat is performed all squads will disengage.
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:38 pm
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Objective: Delay response squads, distraction, possible damage and confusion
Composition: One caster, several phantom steeds
Method:
Squad moves over outlying enemy groups quickly using phantom steeds, maintaining close formation. Illusions are used to make them appear to be more numerous than they are. Symbols of Insanity are carried by each squad to cause confusion among the enemy below them. Each mage has a Greater Anticipate Teleport active. If an enemy tries to teleport into the Anticipation field, the squad stays there for the three rounds, readying an action to teleport away as soon as they arrive. If an enemy response team moves to respond but is not caught in the anticipations field, the squad simply teleports away.
Insertion:
The mages teleport in a ways outside the enemy army, then move closer via flight. Targets are selected from among the outer groups as the squad moves closer.
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:37 pm
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Objective: Cast Tactical Firestorm
Composition: Karhedros, 1 Elven Mage, Tactical Squad (1 Scout, 2 Incantatrix, 1 Abjurer, 1 Healer, 3 Blasters, 1 Tactical Mage)
Positioning:
The squad moves underwater, hidden by normal invisibility, while Karhedros casts Dimensional Lock. They match movement of the enemy force during this time. During the last round of casting, they move out of the water and about 20 or 30 feet into the air.
Movement is accomplished by having the other mages carry Karhedros as he casts his spell.
Once in place, all present are inside the warding (Some at higher or lower elevations to accomplish this)
Method:
Previously: Item familiar and support casters buff themselves
Round 4: Finish casting Dimensional Lock, Activate Warding
Round 5: Cast Arcane Spellsurge, Trigger Quiescent Weave, cast Repulsion
Round 5 (Item Familiar): Cast Eye of the Hurricane
Round 6: Cast Casting Array, begin casting Firestorm
Round 7: continue casting Firestorm
Round 8: Firestorm finishes
2 Action Points (Arcane Thesis (Firestorm), Rapid Spell)
Rod of Metamagic, Greater Maximize
Karhedros: Casting Array with 6th level slot to negate metamagic adjustment
Slots Donated: 4 Level 7 Slots
Checks: Spellcraft DC 54
Concentration DC 66
Tactical Mage: Contributes 1 7th level slot
Concentration check DC 24
Contributor 2: Contributets 1 7th level slot
Concentration Check DC 24
Contributor 3: Incantatrix
Adds Widen to the spell as it is being cast
Spell Cast: Maximized Widened Tactical Rapid Enlarged Sonic Firestorm (CL 23) (DC 37)
Effect: 23 200-foot cubes of sonic energy, each dealing 120 sonic damage.
Range: 6,600 feet, travels 660 feet per round
Defenses:
Area:
Lockdown (Mastery of Shaping to exclude spaces occupied by casters)
Repulsion (210ft radius) (will DC 37 to move closer)
Eye of the Hurricane (40ft radius) (fort DC 36 or be knocked back)
Warding (Indigo Violet) (15ft diameter)
Personal:
Irongaurd (Cast by Item Familiar)
Indomitability (QW)
Freedom of Movement (QW)
Protection From Cold (QW)
Resist Cold (QW)
Peaceful Serenity of Io (RoD, +4 morale to concentration) (cast by Item Familiar)
Greater Invisibility, Heart of Earth, Empowered Greater Mage/Arcane Armor, Fly, Greater Blink (cast by the person they affect)
Active:
Abjurer attempts to counterspell anything the enemy casts at the squad.
Blasters try to shoot down any enemies that penetrate the warding effects or any mages that cast at the squad. They also disintigrate any force effects that are put into place to block the Firestorm.
Contingencies:
If the firestorm is successfully cast, there are several options. If enemy response teams have been defeated and no enemy units have been able to approach effectively, another tactical firestorm can be cast.
If enemy response teams are holding their own well, or if enemy units have been troublesome to the tactical squad, a teleportation effect will be used to move to a position along the river bank and change roles to that of a normal mage squad. Alternately, they can join up with the assault squad.
If enemy response squads have defeated allied forces and mage squads are being effectively countered, the tactical squad will use a teleport effect to disengage completely from combat and retreat to Trelling. If necessary, Karhedros will dispel enemy dimensional locks that may have been put in place.
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:37 pm
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