Also, in each case we had fairly detailed knowledge of what to expect in terms of both enemy units and capabilities. Could we have done a better job gaining intel on Imperial forces? Yes, and that is something I take responsibility for as the party spy and head of the Citadels.
Another note: As a general rule, we didn't do well so much in specific battles as we did in campaigns. We had a number of failures, some worse than others, during Trelling, as well as the disaster that was the warchanter at Winchester.
Statistics: Posted by Laharl — Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:24 pm
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I guess I set my expectations too high after Blackbog and Trelling, during both you guys completely found new methods of getting around my plans, I was hoping you'd be able to do the same again when I set up a battle where I don't hold back on myself.
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:08 pm
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1. I never promised the PCs will win all the battles they fight, that included decisive ones. The battle was meant to be the challenge-of-challenges to the players (in which I hoped the players can win) but also to run a simulation that the strategy I designed for TIP story is effective and not just my complete one-sided thinking. I also did design for the campaign to be able to go on whether you win or lose the battle.
And I'll drop a fair warning now. I haven't designed a plotline for Chroma in any detail since it all depends how you guys choose to start it (there are simply way too many possible branches), but there may actually be Kobayashi-Maru (no win) scenarios - battles that are either really hard, or simply outright impossible to win, and all one can do is grit your teeth through it and hope for the best. I am a big fan of them and believe they contribute hugely to character and plot development. There's two impossible-to-win battles in the TIP storyline itself (for the Imperial side) after all, although both of them were before Penthiae...
2. Regarding how long I took to come up with a counterplan, I remind you I did not start even trying to come up with one until after the battle started, cause I know later on someone is going to challenge me for a counterplan that would actually work. As I said above it was meant to be a test as much as anything else, I really wished someone else could have pointed out a flaw in the strategy setup I designed (shrug).
3. This battle's wasn't designed just for the PCs. No, the forces I lay out for both sides were based on "what it makes sense for each side to have", not "what would make the balance simpler to the PC party". Oh trust me, I did a lot of rough estimates and calculations on what certain amount of magic, time, production, etc etc, should amount to what. On the Imperial side, I knew how many Brigades and Ships they start the Penthiaen arc with when I drafted the TIP storyline last winter, and it's just a matter of filling in what else is around.
4. As for your time spent Drew, all I can say is the same reminder I told you before it started: you did your job, I can assure you. However, as this battle coexists between TIP and PCS, Derovarr was the only one I also assumed on the TIP version would be doing his job.
Either way, chances are you won't see another battle like this again, at least not one where I actually expect you to "try to win with hope of winning". You might still get a fight from me that literally scream, well yeah, you can't win this, so either grit through it ("try to win with expectations of losing") or get off your high horse (and learn the meaning of the word "endure"). Plenty of kings throughout history learned that sometimes they simply have to beg for a cease fire in order to get through a short-term obstacle and aim for long-term solutions... I'm sure any of you civilization-players have learned to try to avoid warring larger states via tributes, appeasement, or even serving as vassals...
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:55 pm
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Yes, the battle was suitably epic. But nuclear missiles? 150 METAACS? Triple Twinned MDJs?
I won't claim to presume that we shared any of the DMs burden of time expenditure, but after the hours of my life I poured into not only playing, but also planning for this game, this last encounter really felt like a giant slap in the face.
As usual, I claim to speak only for myself.
Statistics: Posted by Mr_Praetorian — Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:17 pm
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WESTERN CAMPAIGN
Imperium Command:
-- Star Marshal Aoric Zanaikin (Centurion Tempest)
-- Brigadier-General Kayeten Hans-Rudel (Centurion Apollo: Crimson)
-- Arvitor Sylvanna Elinyreth (Centurion Aura)
-- Major Ariethil Angrudul (Centurion Phantom)
-- Colonel Rika Ye (Centurion Nova: 38th)
-- Colonel Feng Yang (22nd)
-- Colonel Eduard Konovalov (77th)
-- Colonel Hikari Kuribayashi (Engineering)
Imperium Forces:
-- Crimson Blades Flag Brigade
-- 22nd Assault Brigade
-- 38th Assault Brigade
-- 77th Assault Brigade
1. Operation Spitfire - Popovic's scouting attack on the Alliance to both gather hard information on Battlemasters and provide cover for Aoric's main force to port & assemble. Furthermore since Popovic's launchers weren't upgraded to HVM, nor were his battle line troops equipped with Protect-from-Evil amulets, which may cause enemy to underestimate the second battle.
2. Operation Fredrick - Aoric's Oblique Order Attack to draw the Alliance strength towards the Imperial central-right.
3. Operation Spark - Sylv's War Castings to further draw attention from Airindale mage units away from Mistletoe.
4. Operation Mistletoe - Kayeten's Flank Drive towards the Alliance's right flank rear.
5. Operation Citadel - Kayeten & Aoric's Combined Assault against the Alliance right flank, rolling it up from the west.
6. Operation Valhalla - Rika's Charge, to be executed either as an offensive provocation effort or a defensive desperado need.
Mission Parameters:
Airindale/Misalin's inferiority in tactical speed and range means they have no choice but to entangle the Imperium main line and engage. Thus the Imperial center however will be held by Rika's 38th, seemingly the weakest and most vulnerable of the Imperial units. The primary attack forces will be piled towards either the left or right flank, depending on how the enemy positions.
The goal is to focus the enemy's attention at the center and one wing. At the center Rika's unit MUST hold their position in a slow mobile defense; if Derovarr doesn't attack in force, Rika will instead provoke the Airindale/Misalin line and entangle the enemy offensively.
Meanwhile, the main attack will press forth from the Imperial's heavier wing, with the Crimson Blades held as a reserve (for when the operation succeeds or fall apart) while Sylv provides war magic support. This is meant to convince the Alliance that it is the main attack. In addition, Aoric will personally lead the attack on the battlefield...
The true attack however will come from the Imperial FAR left/right, where Kayeten will lead Crimson Blades' 3 METAAC companies to circle around the battle and plunge straight towards the Alliance's rear. Once they reach the rear, Kayeten and Aoric will pincer the Alliance left flank from both sides while the Crimson Blades are unleashed into the battle, following by rolling up the defensive line from west to east. Units on the Imperial left will also tie down the enemy to keep them from being withdrawn easily.
CARDS TO FLIP:
1. Tactical Nuclear Cruise Missiles x 12
2. HVM Launcher Upgrade
3. Zilong's Sevenfold Core (known) & Nuclear Device (the Metaac was carrying it on a deadman switch)
4. Kayeten's Sedlityz & 150 METAACs
5. Aoric's Weaponization (known)
Battle Order Ten-One "Radar Pierce"
Battle Order Ten-Two "Scatterfire"
CRITIQUES OF THE ALLIANCE ACTIONS:
1. Anti-METAAC implementation was developed far too late. It enough of those grenades were developed early enough and the reserve held to deal with Kayeten, the Imperials' decisive thrust may have been decisively blunted.
2. The Battle of Quarter Cross forced the alliance to show their hand, whereas the Imperials showed none of their cards. Despite the Brigade falling apart, there was no sign of help from their famous METAACs, or even a hint of what their technological upgrade would be. Furthermore, the same success caused alliance commanders to become overconfident of the abilities of strike forces to crush their enemy.
3. General intelligence failure. Although this goes for both sides, once again the Battle of Quarter Cross gave the Imperials very good information on what they were dealing with. The Alliance never did figure out what was the enemy's new hardware or the Crimson Brigade's structure until the battle started.
**If anything, the Western Alliance really should have tried holding back during the Battle of Quarter Cross. It would have cost more Battlemasters maybe, but tricks could have been saved for use during the more decisive battle without having the enemy already being definitely aware of it (they might still plan for it though, but there's a different between theoretical stuff and actually knowing/seeing it).
4. The planning to attack the Crimson Brigade caused all the Strike Groups to delay until the Crimson brigade came within range. This lead to a lot of passive non-action and general waste of time while the Imperials pounded away at the Central Battle Line. If the Strike Groups went in earlier they could have reduced battlemaster losses to artillery by quite an amount simply as they'd entangle the artillery units.
5. I didn't think of this idea until after the battle went halfway:
The main restriction with teleportation based attacks is that one, only so many Teleportation Circles may be made at once and they're slow to cast, two, it's hard to predict the exact future enemy position. However, you know their general vector, you have rough estimates on their artillery range... so what if instead of trying to play Teleportation battle by their rules you have the enemy walk into a prebuilt stage where your rules have already been established? Consider positioning the Battlemasters at the edge of the lockdown field, then create Extended Teleportation Circles to a number of different positions within the 30mile perimeter (since your estimate of their artillery range is 30miles). This means that once the enemy hits the 30mile zone or nears it in order to come into firing range, you can just rush the Battlemasters through the circles. You don't need to predict the enemy's exact position because you know they have to be around that range to engage, and you know the general direction for which they'll approach from so you can just dot that area with exit points. This requires a lot of high level spell slot expenditures to make the circles (not to mention a lot of preparative spellcasting), and chances are the exit points will still be off by a few miles, but 1~5 miles off may be reached in under 3 minutes, whereas travelling across 25~30 miles requires far too much time under enemy fire. The effectiveness of this tactic however depends on three factors: one is luck; two is timing of when to send troops through, too close will cause the Imperials to jam the bridgeheads while too far will cause the circles to lose effectiveness; and three is how to keep the preparation of the circle concealed from possible enemy knowledge... a Tactical Mage's Private Sanctum should do nicely.
6. Command was exposed far too early. While the Sky Galleons are tough customers, they are still but a few units, and taking them in behind enemy lines without any other support was suicidal at best. The Penthiaen may not have fully learned about the fact that heavy ships require screening support yet, but sending in two Sky Galleons without any escort at all - what kind of rationality is that? If the goal was to distract the enemy from the battlemasters the timing was too early and the teleportation should have at least waited until the last minute.
7. A large number of Battlemaster regiments were lost before even the campaign began. This was just kind of unexpected in the original planning.
AIRINDALE CARD:
Wrath Resurgence - revive the lingering negative spirits that compose the Battlemasters. This will be as the ritual spell Airindale performed, except Aelisar will be sacrificing her Arvitor powers to compensate for a lack of time and caster support. The resulting spellburn damage will more than knock her out, but will also reset all Battlemasters in a wide range (effectively reforming the full Battlemaster strength of before the battle).
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:35 am
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Weird and Horrid Wilting are burst spells that require individual targetting, which makes them pretty much useless as tactical spells - a mage can't individual target across that range to that kind of precision, that's like asking a human brain to track as many targets as an aegis system.
as for the fogs, well everyone already expects their effects to be temporary. They won't create chokepoints though. The concept of trying to create a chokepoint in a 3 dimensional battle is laughable - there are way too many directions to turn. It's main job is simply to delay an opponent while they do have to change direction and circumvent around the fogs
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:58 pm
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Illusions are of dubious utility, given how quickly the Imperials discovered them the last time. When considering effects like Incite Riot and Symbol of Insanity, remember that the Imperials were trying to equip as many of their forces as possible with rings of Protection from Evil, which, while meant to counter the Battlemasters' insanity aura, would be equally effective against Incite Riot and Symbol of Insanity. Combined with the wide spacing of the enemy forces, such spells would have a greatly reduced impact. Given the altitude of this battle, I doubt that Caustic Mire would have much effect, and remember that damaging energy spells such as Fireball or others that would benefit from the acid fumes are exactly the kind of spell the Imperial anti-war magic firing pattern is designed to intercept, which was why I proposed alternatives such as Weird or Horrid Wilting.
Having evenly balanced forces across the line does have its advantages. It means we don't have to rely so much on the Storm of Vengeance entangling the 22nd Brigade, and we have to potential to devastate their entire battle line at once. However, it also means that, when the Crimson Blades are committed, they will have a much greater advantage in the area that they move to, and our forces will be hard-pressed to counter them. Also, remember that the casualty figures from last battle included the effect of our strikes destroying a large portion of the enemy artillery halfway through the advance. If the Air Fleet Strike Teams do not similarly cripple the enemy artillery this battle, we will face much, much higher casualties.
As to the reserves, I don't think they can effectively be used as a mobile force in this battle. It takes several minutes to cast the Teleportation Circle, and several more for the Battlemasters to slowly filter through. Also, such a tactic requires a large number of our most powerful casters to stay behind with the reserve force, preventing them from participating in the battle up to that point. If you want to keep them as insurance against our forces here being devastated, alright, but we won't be able to use them to alter the outcome of this battle, and any forces we keep back reduce our chances of victory here.
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:37 pm
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As for the primary strategy itself:
Based on casualty estimates from the last battle, the bulk if our BMs were taken down by Imperial artillery fire, and if I recall correctly, we lost about 3K in total from said attacks. Factoring in the additional battle-line behind them, we could be looking at as much 4,000-5,000 casualties per line of BMs, assuming we offer our forward lines no support. However, as we've noticed, once the BM's get into combat range, the battle becomes effectively one sided, and, given the difference in CR, a much smaller number of BMs can slaughter a much larger number of Imperials. So, from this, we can decipher that our primary goal is to get the BMs in combat range
Obviously we cannot rely on mere circumstance with regards to to our attack. So, lets take a moment to review what other resources we have available in this battle:
Air Fleet Strike Teams
Tactical Spells
Sky Galleons
Reserve Wings (Loaded with Crusaders)
If our goal is to get our BMs in range, then we must use our resources to distract the enemy, or prevent them from firing altogether. The Tactical Storm of Vengeance, Clouds, and Fogs can go a long way in forcing our enemy to maneuver in uncomfortable fashion. A series of Tactical Widened Cloudkill could force both of the enemy battle-lines to re-maneuver while other WMSs and the air ships could hammer the pile-ups with damaging spells. Other fun spells to consider:
Phantom Battle: Okay, so the actual effects of the spell aren't very interesting. Then again, forcing the enemy to redirect soldiers to aid in a battle that isn't actually happening could helpful, if not comical.
Incite Riot: Everyone in the area roles a will save, if they fail, they have to attack someone, even if its their friend. If only we could find a way to broadcast on their comm-links...
Now that I think about it, we should have gotten more Symbol of Insanity (boulders), and had the elves drop them off of their ships as they flew by. I don't suppose we have any Symbol of Insanity [items] do we?
Alright, enough banter, on with the actual proposal:
Our central battle line (CBL, will be broken into into 3 segments of 8,000 a piece. When the operation commences, the CBL will begin to advance upon the enemy, as they are nearing the enemy (within 3 miles or so), three things will happen in rapid succession:
1. A series of teleporation circles will open behind the enemy's double envelope (behind the Crimson Brigade), and Battlemasters will begin to pour through.
2. The Air Fleet Strike Teams will begin harassing and attacking the Crimson Brigade's missile carriers, heavy artillery. The primary cause for their attacks will not be to definitively challenge the enemy, but instead to provide and distractions for the BMs who are funneling in through the Teleporation Circles. When the BMs appear have made a foothold, they will break off and engage different artillery.
3. WMSs will move in and begin casting battlefield control spells (including Kati's Tactical Storm of Vengeance, and, while we're at it, let's have them throw out more illusionary BMs, it worked pretty well the last time). As the Imperials are maneuvering around the field of spells, the three Sky Galleons will begin to bombard the choke-points created by the spells. The mages will continue this patter until one of two things happens:
1. The BMs meet the enemy, at which point they will begin redirecting their spells towards the enemy's rearguard.
2. The enemy's tactical squad appears, at which point as many as necessary will move to counter it. The Sky Galleons will continue to pound the enemy, however.
Waiting for "hotspots" to flare up will be the reserve wing, which will be broken up into two groups. Each with 2 ships and 100 crusaders. Each once will be lead by a Misalinian command squad: One lead by party, and one lead by Cary's Squad (for the purposes if this strike, Derovarr urges Cary to take an addtional 2 Crusader Commanders from the detail being left behind at Blackbog to ensure that her squad packs more of a punch, he also lends her the Martial Script with War God's charge on it, should she need it (if she already has it, thats fine too).
For the sake of logistics:
CBL: 24,000 (broken into 3 segments).
Rear-distraction forces: 5,000
Reserves: 2,500
Thoughts?
Statistics: Posted by Mr_Praetorian — Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:32 pm
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Storm of Vengeance: Only 1/6 of the damage the Storm does is energy, the rest being from hail. Given that the Call Meteor was not blocked by the Imperial shields, I doubt that hail would be. A dispel seems unlikely, given the tremendous size of the storm and the need to locate the origin to dispel the whole thing. Kati has a very high CL too, so it would take a high-level commander to dispel the storm. I don't see the Storm as entirely vital, it simply helps somewhat.
On Tactical Spells: They are a significant resource, and it would be foolish not to utilize all of our resources in this decisive battle. Magical defenses have proven effective against the Imperial countermeasures, which seem to be mainly focused on disrupting the offensive capability of the tactical spell, so I see no reason not to try to find something effective for the War Magic Sections to do in the event that they aren't needed to disrupt the enemy Arvitor's casting.
As to the battlemasters being too many, remember that we have a seven mile front to attack along, and three dimensions to spread them out in rather than the usual two. We have pretty much as much room as we could possibly use to spread them out.
As to reserves, I'm not sure how effective they could be. Lacking long-range teleports, the battlemasters can't quickly respond to a threat, and if we leave behind enough in reserves to make a serious fighting force, our battle line forces would be seriously depleted. Also, any group of battlemasters held in reserve would make a perfect target for the Imperial artillery, which they would be helpless to respond to.
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:35 am
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Responses (in support, mostly) to Drew's responses:
1: Imperials have shields. Shields block energy damage on the order of 100/round. Storm of Vengeance does energy damage.
2: Battle of <I forget>, Alexander. Used terrain to keep too many Persians from getting to his troops at once and carved them into meat. See the correlation?
Tactical Casting: Well...I think we rely a little too much on it, also, if their artillery can target our casters (miles long range, remember), they'll launch there as soon as the spell is detected.
I don't have too much constructive to offer, but I'll critique all day long.
Statistics: Posted by Laharl — Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:27 am
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1. The entire strategy hinges up the left flank being entangled by that storm, which a well aimed dispel can halt instantaneously.
2. The amount of forces you're suggesting to throw at the enemy does not seem feasible. My fear is that in order for 22K troops to properly engage the enemy, you have the to either concentrate them so closely they'd practically be carrying each other, or you'd have to stagger them out so far that when they may it to the enemy they'd be to spread out to coordinate an effective attack.
3. This plan leaves virtually no reserves. I understand the situation we face, but throwing every single battlemaster into the assault seems like folly. This may be the decisive battle of the war, but that does not mean we should plan it as though it were the last battle of the war.
Alternative Strategy Formulation in Progress.
Statistics: Posted by Mr_Praetorian — Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:02 am
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I'm assuming that the battlemasters are currently spread as far apart as possible while advancing to minimize damage from AoOs, while still being concentrated enough to overwhelm the Imperial lines when they get there. I will call this spacing d, where d is the shortest distance maintained between any two battlemasters in the formation.
On the Left:
5,000 Battlemasters. These will have a spacing of 3d. While this means that they will probably not be able to decisively defeat the Imperial 22nd Brigade even if they engage, the huge spacing will minimize damage from artillery, given that the enemy will have to saturate 9 times the area that they normally would to inflict comparable casualties. Once these reach direct-fire distance of the enemy line, Kati will cover the entire left flank of the enemy with a Tactical Storm of Vengeance. The storm has a diameter of almost 3 miles when widened, and should allow the battlemasters to concentrate their forces a bit more as they make the final push, without worrying too much about enemy fire. If Twinned and Empowered, the storm will also deal a total of 18d6 damage to everything in its area, softening up the Imperial forces somewhat. This portion of the battle is designed to keep the
Center:
10,000 Battlemasters. Charge and attempt to break the center of the enemy formation.
Right Flank:
12,000 Battlemasters. Charge and attempt to break the right of the enemy formation.
Teleport Contingent:
5,000 Battlemasters. These will pour through teleportation circles to the middle and rear of the center and right of the enemy formation, sowing confusion and trying to prevent them from making an orderly retreat.
Reserve forces:
Sky Galleons Retribution, Radiance, and Vindicator; 3 Companies Crusaders. If mobile forces manage to finish their attacks on the artillery before the reserve is committed, they will join the reserve force.
Notes:
As long as the 22nd brigade remains entangled, this will give us a 2:1 local advantage over the 77th, 36th, and 38th brigades. If the Crimson Brigade commits, they can increase the Imperial strength to a 1:1 ratio in one of the two areas, including the Imperials' most elite forces. Hopefully the Misalenians of the reserve force will be able to keep the fight balanced against the Crimson Brigade.
The main worry I have is that the Daethelar's idea will fail and the Teleportation contingent will be unable to prevent the Imperials from executing a fighting retreat. If the enemy looks like they are pursuing this tactic, Kati will put another Tactical Storm of Vengeance over the 36th and 38th Brigades, slowing them to 1/4 of their normal speed and hopefully allowing the Battlemasters in the center to engage them decisively. If we are forced into this situation, destroying the enemy artillery will be even more vital. Without their artillery, the Imperials will hopefully have a difficult time inflicting heavy casualties while staying out of engagement range of the battlemasters, and we will be able to at least prevent them from achieving a decisive victory.
Tactical Spellcasting:
I would like to find some offensive area spells that the Imperials would not be able to disrupt with their counter-tactical firing maneuver. This means that anything involving physical energy "shots" that could be detonated by shrapnel will not work.
Ideas: Horrid Wilting; Weird
Of course, if the enemy warcaster shows up we'll have to devote all our power to countering her, so this might not be an issue.
Thoughts?
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:15 pm
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This is not to say that tactical movement is impossible with teleportation circles, but expects a certain degree of off-target porting. The less exact the end location needs to be, the better...
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:45 am
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Also, would it be possible to deploy a Tactical Teleportation Circle?
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:47 am
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Just to note, but you actually have ~31,500 Battlemasters.
And based on the casualties taken from last battle, the numbers here you give implies that the CBL flanks of 4,000 each will be either thinned out to extremity or utterly destroyed by the time they reach the Imperial line. Remember the two wings of the Imperial line is basically one Brigade each.
The three Imperial Battle lines form a front that's around 3~4 miles deep. I'm not completely sure about the width of it but expect that to be something like 7~10 miles. Trying to outmaneuver an enemy with superior speed, especially a double-envelopment since that's probably the most time-consuming of all maneuvering tactics, does not give a very high chance of success. Chances are the enemy will draw forces from other places to block your advance long before you reach envelopment position, so if that's your goal then all well and done, if that's not you may want to rethink this.
And yes, I wouldn't be telling you some of this if your character doesn't have Know[tactics], so no Drew it's not useless =P
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:46 pm
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As for the deployment of our Battlemasters. My current plan to commit the majority of our remaining forces for the upcoming battle. The current breakdown is as follows:
Central Battle Line (In segments of): 7,000 (center), 4,000 (each flank)
Right Flank: 4,000
Left Flank: 4,000
"Cannon Fodder": 2,000
Reserves (not being used): 5,000
The CBL will be the force that will assault the Imperial Line, and will be broken into the three sub-segments featured above. The central segment of our CBL is strongest to account for the Crimson Brigade following behind. Though, I'm hoping that between the tactical spells, and the damage to half of the enemy's center, that our forces will be able to break through them with relatively light casualties.
On the approach, the two flanks will act as through they're moving along with the main bulk of the Battlemasters, but will be staggered and advancing off to the to the sides of the CBL. When the CBL engages the enemy, the two flanks will immediately move to quickly swing around the enemy's flanks and break their units in half. Two regiments to assault the rear of the flanks, and two regiments to assault Crimson Brigade.
If pulled off successfully, this plan will allow us to achieve local superiority against all segments of the enemies formation, to the order of*:
Theatre: (Eastern Alliance) vs. (Imperial/Norinth)
CBL: ~7,000 vs. ~5,000
Flank Lines: ~4,000(CBL sub-segment) + ~2,000 vs. ~5,000
Imperial Rearguard: ~2,000 + ~4,000 + ~5,000 (estimated remainder of CBL sub-segment) vs. ~5,000
*These assumptions do not take into account Long Ranger Fire, Tactical Spells, nor damage inflicted by enemy/friendly strike groups.
Opinions?
Statistics: Posted by Mr_Praetorian — Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:23 pm
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Ideally (and I do use this term loosely), this tactic could be repeated throughout the battle in other areas of the Imperial Battle Line, and preferably without a specific pattern. After we've hit the middle, we could send the the mages to the left flank, and start firing the shots and right the etc. This would require a great degree of coordination with the strike groups as well, but just flinging tactical shots at an enemy doesn't do it anymore.
Besides, assuming we can get that Storm of Vengeance to work, the enemies center will be even more confused. Though its probably worth noting that we won't be able to cast of the clouds and fogs near the storm, since the wind will just blow them away.
Thoughts?
Statistics: Posted by Mr_Praetorian — Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:29 pm
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It's time for you guys to start thinking about detailed plans, and not just general planning.
A few things to think about:
What numbers are involved in each attack - the main attack, how many branches of the main attack, how many teleportation/entangling attacks and how much to send, how many teleportation circles to propose opening, if there are any specific operations / special maneuvers you'd like to pre-plan, etc etc.
Just something to ponder about in meantime...
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:53 am
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Both armies on the Eastern Campaign side are fully Airborne. All Imperial units are airborne, I believe I've clarified that a dozen times. That includes ALL of their vehicles, including their artillery.
Same goes for most of the alliance side forces, even if some of them have a limited airborne combat duration (like the Battlemasters and their Air Walk which lasts for over 2hrs without my weird round(action/duration time)-to-(actual)time translation - which is enough for most purposes.)
And if anyone is hanging onto the notion artillery shells only burst upon impact (I hope there aren't anyways), I'd like to point you to altitude trigger shells (available back in WW2) and proximity shells.
So for all purposes, terrain doesn't matter as much in a war like this. You could be fighting over the ocean for all that matters. Although mountains and forests and such will still provide cover/concealment for troops that stay on land rather than go airborne.
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:27 pm
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The overlapping area? I'm more likely to go with either the AMFs don't really cancel out one another... or freak things happen and I get to roll dice and make things up (similar to concept of what happens with Spell Reflection meet Spell Reflection).
What happens when one source of AMF-emanation tries to break into the area of another AMF? Well that's a sticky issue I have no intention of layering out all mechanics for just yet. - now I'm even more tempted by the 'freak happening' idea, since it's just allow me to roll more dice for 'freak occurances"... maybe I'll just roll in a Rod of Wonder.
The moral of the story is : don't munchkinize excessively on contradicting rules which ends up giving DM headaches, you'll likely force me to rule not in your favor because I got annoyed with it.
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:32 am
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Would it work to make the grenade a hollow sphere, with a small ball suspended in the center. The small center ball would project an unshaped AMF, while the Disintegrate would be triggered by the outer outer sphere. The point would be to remove the Disintegration mechanism from the origin of the AMF, so that it would be well inside the area where the two AMFs negate each other, and thus would be able to trigger normally. (Assuming that the target was protected by a normal AMF, obviously it would have no effect on a non-AMF'd target).
I'm not sure if this interpretation is right. I'm still not sure I understand why a non-shaped AMF grenade on an AMF target would fail.
If this is valid in principle, theres a couple problems I can see. If the solid outer sphere blocks the emanation of the AMF, we could change it to a wire mesh type outer layer, with holes to let the emanation through. The hollow sphere design, especially if it has holes in the outer layer, would also probably not fly very well. This could limit range when throwing the grenades, but shouldn't be a problem with the telekinesis-powered Grenade Launcher.
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:09 am
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and unless you want this a lot more expensive than you'd probably like, I suggest you figure out where Shape Spell is from.
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:08 pm
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If anyone has ideas for other raid or sabotage type activities we could perform, post them here.
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:15 pm
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Etherealness would probably not be worth it, given that most battles involving fortifications will take place within lockdowns.
Dai: I'm not sure I understand exactly how the AMF negation works. My immediate thought is to simply change it to an unshaped AMF. If I'm understanding this right, that would make it nonfunctional against normal targets, but would be able to affect targets with an AMF of their own. If this is right, it would limit the item's use to METAACs only.
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:03 pm
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1. Their elite squads have taken quite some significant losses during the Trias raid.
2. The Tactical Squads will be essential in the upcoming campaign and they have no intention of risking them to attack some mid-value target in the eve of battle.
3. Raiding typically implies dealing massive infrastructural damage as the cost of highly risking and often trading the lives of command squads and commanders, and frankly the Alliance cannot afford to lose more of their seasoned commanders.
4. Trias was probably the only major concentration of artificing industry in Norinth. Sure there are smaller concentrations in other towns - but again not valuable enough in the opinion of the elves. Of course the Imperium has been boosting Norinth's nonmagical industry since their arrival, but based on all information - they're also rather scattered out (no industrial sectors, only lone factories).
So unless you manage a plan to reduce danger to minimum levels... they're not doing it with you.
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:15 am
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Expect cost per item to exceed 15k, if not significantly higher.
A few other weaknesses the Artificers will point out:
Shaped AMF has an AMF penetration of 10ft (cancelling each other out), thus if the enemy has a wider AMF, or an unshaped one, a shaped AMF won't be able to negate the center of theirs.
Because of the AMF surrounding the item, the effects of the Disintegrate will also be significantly reduced - instead of a standard 10ft cube, it's size is limited by the center 'hole' in the AMF.
but other than that, nice idea.
Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:00 am
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Our best idea so far is to use multiple simultaneous tactical firestorms to hit a city from several sides at once with overwhelming firepower. The tactical section would sneak into range with Chained Superior Invisibility, cast as quickly as possible, and then flee at top speed, teleporting out as soon as possible. We have enough tactical squads to hit two, possibly three cities at once with several firestorms each, inflicting a huge amount of devastation in a very short amount of time, hopefully before any response can be mounted.
Comments and suggestions would be appreciated. We need to choose two or three cities that are the largest cities of industry and artifice in Norinth, not including Trias.
Note to Dai: all planning on this is done in the utmost secrecy, and only the very top level commanders (Silver Knights and Airindale Supreme Command, probably Teodor also) will be informed. During planning sessions all participants will be covered with Mind Blank to prevent divinations.
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:04 am
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A small metal ball, exactly the same size as a Glyph Grenade, that acts as a single-use magic item. When thrown or fired from a Grenade Launcher, it activates a shaped Antimagic Field effect around itself. This allows it to penetrate magical defenses, and hopefully to deliver spells through the dead-magic zone that surrounds METAACs. When the sphere impacts something, it releases a Disintegrate spell, turning to dust along with whatever it hit.
Estimated Cost:
Antimagic Field, single use: 6*11*50 = 3,300
Disintegrate, CL11, single use: 6*11*50 = 3,300
Misc expenses (shaping, triggers): some more
Total Cost: ~8,000 gp
Samael will talk to the artificers to see if this type of device would be feasible. If so, he'll try to rush out a few prototypes to test before trying to mass produce them.
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:38 pm
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The only issue I have is whether 1000 battlemasters will be enough. Kovis used 4,000 to assault a lair of similar size, and still suffered 10% casualties. 1000 may not be enough to shatter the orc defenses as decisively as we would like, and such a force could conceivably be repulsed by a determined defense by the orc clans.
We'll also have to make sure to deploy the aerial assault force correctly. The hidering spells especially will be completely useless if they are not cast directly onto the entry to the lair.
Statistics: Posted by TheDude51 — Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:18 pm
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40k Ring of Freedom of Movement (melded into sustenance ring)
Cost to Ulrich: 57.5k
Statistics: Posted by Squall255 — Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:20 pm
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Warmagi: The single, half-strength company we possess.
Battlemasters: For the sake of simplicity, 1000 shall be pulled from Thatal Keep. They will be split into 3 groups, and 100 shall be held in reserve.
Statistics: Posted by Mr_Praetorian — Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:39 pm
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Goal: Complete elimination of enemy forces.
Basic Idea: To use the elements of panic and confusion to draw the bulk of our enemies elite troops into a battle near the air entrance to the lair, while the bulk of their warriors are tied up engaging the battlemasters in the tunnels. Shortly after the battlemasters engage the enemy in the tunnels, the command squad and about 5 squads of crusaders will make a faint surgical strike into the ariel entrance, not a full engagement, just enough to draw them out. Waiting for those who chase us out will be the remaining crusaders and mages, who will proceed to blast them. The retribution will be stationed nearby to help convince them to fly out should it be required, and her two dropships will aid the skirmishers in keeping an eye on the surrounding area.
Exit Strategy: Dropships will pick up skirmisher companies, while the command squad and any present members of the captain's company will act a rearguard for retreating crusaders and magi. Battlemasters will withdraw to the point where we teleported them in, and will be teleported out under the protection of the command squad and compliment.
Troops needed:
150 Crusaders
50 Mages
50 Skirmishers
Retribution
900 Battlemasters (split into 3 groups)
Phase 0: All forces into position. Retribution will remain cloaked until engaged.
Phase 1: Battlemasters engage enemy in tunnels.
Phase 2: Command Squad, crusaders, and mages will move towards the ariel entrance, and, if in range, begin to engage any enemies within the vicinity.
Phase 3: Mage and crusaders groups will take position as the command squad and compliments move to coerce the enemy to engagement.
Phase 3.5: In the instance that the enemy is already airborne and mobilized (which, given the scenario, is likely) , the command squad and compliments will move to engage 'said forces while the remaining forces will use a combination of spells and glyphic grenades to create a field of hindering magical effects (walls of "x", solid fog, etc) to slow the advance of more enemies. In this way, enemies prepared to handle such hinderances will be separated from their less "buffed" troops and will be easier to take down.
Phase 4: Victory/Defeat
Notes:
Based on what we've learned from previous battles will the Fensdwellers using the battlemasters, they are extremely effective, but also have a tendency to cause high civilian casualties. This is unfortunate, but not easily remedied. Battlemasters will be instructed to attack only threatening targets, but there does not seem to be much that can be done.
In the event that potential threats are detected by the skirmishers, the nearest dropship will move in to pick of the party (ies) that are closest to the "threat". Actual to reaction to 'said threat will have to be determined at the time.
Statistics: Posted by Mr_Praetorian — Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:24 am
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Statistics: Posted by Zanaikin — Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:50 pm
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