Custom System
- Zanaikin
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Custom System
So here's something I only talked about to a few people, but is something I've been interested in working on for a while. The question is whether it be worth investing time in something like this...
As the conversation goes in that panel me and Marty attended in Otakon. D&D, and the d20 system altogether, has some serious flaws. The main deal is that it is fundamentally designed for combat and adventuring and not much else. All classes/feats are too combat focused, and mostly only good for the type of wildland-adventuring or dungeon-delving combat. Furthermore, things simply aren't scaled properly, and the class system has serious role-distribution and balancing issues.
So hence I restart this idea back up. Not just customizing and trying to patch up holes, but reworking the clothing altogether. It'll be different from D&D down to many of the core mechanics, but it'll be similar enough to adapt playstyles/materials over. I tend to enjoy working on custom materials anyways, so all this does is divert my existing D&D-modification time to something that might have better long-term gains...
Not to mention, if this actually gets going well, it would make good content for a website, if Marty's willing...
Of course, I'm going to ask certain people here to help a lot, especially
---Drew (who has as much problem with D&D system as me, if you're interested I'd ask you to partner with me on this)
---Dave (for balancing help)
---Judson (because you got too many mechanics ideas, and you're our prooftester for making sure crazy builds don't work their way in)
PROJECT CURRENT PROPOSALS
Nothing is set here, and will vary a lot based on responses I get back from people...
ABILITY SCORES:
Problem: D&D ability scores don't vary by enough, a STR20 char who'd likely win weightlifting matches has only a 25% higher chance of breaking down the door? Giveme a break. Not to mention certain stats are far more powerful than others (cough DEX cough)
Proposal: This is based off my TIP mechanics design. Dividing the ability score set to 8 stats. Each ability score will be averaged (at in, common human character) at 20. When translating over a char-dev thinking from D&D, just double the ability score. Ability modifiers however will be the difference from 20. So a D&D-STR20 char would have 40 Str in this system, with a +20 STR mod, more than enough for it to win wrestling competitions with.
Eight ability scores:
Strength - normal, strength will also be necessary for any weapon/armor proficiencies above light weapon/armor
Dexterity - hand-eye coordination, impact accuracies/dex-skills
Agility - speed of action, impacts attack/movement speed, defense, etc
Vitality - as constitution, useful for non-combat as it resist fatigue from prolonged skill check actions (like crafting nonstop)
Intelligence - normal*
Wisdom - normal*, except doesn't apply to will saves. Wisdom however will apply to lots of small misc bonuses (AC, attack, skills) to represent intuition
Resolve - strength of determination, impacts will saves, action-points, etc
*Also, raw Int and Wis checks will be used heavily to both limit metagaming (when you do something your character shouldn't be smart enough to figure out) or to get ideas from the DM when you don't know what you should do (since we can't all be as good as our chars, the DM might not be as smart either, but at least they designed the encounter and has a good idea on how to solve it). And with the modifier change, the char's stats is a lot more important than the d20 roll...
BACKGROUND/PERSONALITY:
Kind of like Faerun's background feat, except this'll be kept separate from the feat system. All characters will get 1~2 background and 1 personality. Backgrounds will probably fixed but really good bonuses for low level chars, while personality bonuses will scale with level.
RACES:
Will be similar to how I do it in Chroma - bonuses will scale with level/stats, because that's where humans really shine over the other races (in mechanics terms) right now.
CLASSES:
This needs serious work on redefining and rebalancing the role, significance, and mechanics of each class. Base Attack Bonus and Base Saves will still be class based, except BAB/saves will not only vary, some classes won't progress them at ALL - Obama may be a lvl16+ character to do his job as president, but I doubt he can fight any better than a lvl4 professional soldier. Also, AC and Reflex saves are merged (idea from SW:Saga). Armor may slow your reflexes, but that full-plate also means your skin isn't completely scorched after a fireball.
There will be no prestige classes - D&D has gotten FAR out of hand with that (not to balancing PRCs have become a nightmare). However many class abilities will scale with char-level/BAB/skill-ranks (like DCs) to support crossclassing, similar to how martial initiator levels increase even if you're not in a martial class. Proficiencies are no longer all granted at lvl1, so dipping a fight-type level won't help you.
Taking idea from many d20 variants, class abilities will not be distributed by class levels but by ability trees - this means one doesn't have to take a lot of levels just to grab a few abilities they actually want. To prevent class-dipping, all powerful abilities will have lots of prereqs, no getting Divine Grace at lvl2 crap.
Current class list:
Crusader - a more appropriate name for Paladin, mixed focus between combat and divine powers, resilient vs. aliens-of-the-mortal-realms and divine powers of other sources (enemy clerics, etc).
Druid - the nature caster, see Magus for mechanics, also access to some Scout abilities.
Expert - the generic skill-focused class, great for civilian profesionals.
Magus - the arcanist, gets access to spellbook, and know (spontaneous cast) a few spells from the spellbook, which can change by taking a few hours to memorize. Bard abilities will fall under this class' ability tree.
Marshal - the frontline leader, ability trees to inspire others and support combat, while gaining some combat skills that are more team-oriented.
Noble - the politician, trumps every other class when it comes to social interaction.
Priest - the divine caster, see Magus for mechanics.
Scoundrel - the rogue, except more emphasis on skills and much slower sneak attack progression, this'll be the jack-of-all-trades (rather than the bard), ability trees include negotiator, stealth, infiltration, etc.
Scout - similar to the rogue, except a more limited range of 'field skills'. Limited sneak attack, none of that skirmish stuff. Scout abilities will focus on boosting speed (they'll be fastest of all classes), reducing penalties for attack while moving, stealth/perception, wilderness skills.
Shocktrooper - the tank, with ability trees to optimize usage of heavy armor, heavy weapons, and absorb massive punishment. Barbarian rage will be mixed into this class.
Swordsage - the martial artist, with focus on specific technique/stances rather than overall handling and performance. This'll be the only class that focuses on maneuvers (which can be picked up via feats for other classes). However, identifying the technique (via martial lore) weakens them as you know what to expect, and some disciplines will form a rock-paper-scissors relationship.
Tactician - the planner, directs others in combat or in productivity, will be utilize the lvl1-9 order system (something I'm working on). The tactician directs from the rear where the marshal leads from the front.
HIT POINTS:
Most of your hit points will be gained at lvl1, and progress very slowly afterwards. This'll encourage high-level characters to use brains and not brawn. Your scaling defense/ability can still allow you to kick ass, dynasty warriors style if you wish, but the chances of one well-placed hit to disable you will make one choose their engagements and not just charge in mindlessly.
FEATS:
Taking a note from Races of War [custom WOTC forum design], most feats will now scale with level/BAB/ranks. E.g. take Weapon Specialization and your base weapon damage will start doubling & tripling as your BAB goes up, allowing you to one-hit soldiers even without critical/power-attack.
SKILLS:
Variant off pathfinder, similar to what I have in Chroma. They did a real good job with this. Only thing to be added is formal rules for modifying DCs based on roleplay, and complex multi-tiered skill checks for extremely complicated actions.
SPELLCASTING:
Maintaining the lvl1-9 spell range so we can make use of all D&D spell resources. As for casting spells character will get a pool of points (like psionics), except this pool slowly recharge with rest like HP, not /day. Powerful spells will TAKE TIME (at least 1rnd) so they can be disrupted, so casters will be very powerful, but only if they're defended properly. Combat/skill support spells will remain swift/move action cast.
XP:
Experience is given for getting things done, meaning quests/missions, not how-much-of-a-mess-you-make while questing... <.<
OTHERS:
Weapons will affect more than just damage/crit, e.g. slashing weapons can cleave, bludgeoning can bull-rush, piercing has better accuracy, etc.
Buffs and magical-gear will be weakened significantly as there will be less types of modifiers to use. Caps on certain ones will be much lower - one won't become a genius as soon as they put on headband of intellect.
As the conversation goes in that panel me and Marty attended in Otakon. D&D, and the d20 system altogether, has some serious flaws. The main deal is that it is fundamentally designed for combat and adventuring and not much else. All classes/feats are too combat focused, and mostly only good for the type of wildland-adventuring or dungeon-delving combat. Furthermore, things simply aren't scaled properly, and the class system has serious role-distribution and balancing issues.
So hence I restart this idea back up. Not just customizing and trying to patch up holes, but reworking the clothing altogether. It'll be different from D&D down to many of the core mechanics, but it'll be similar enough to adapt playstyles/materials over. I tend to enjoy working on custom materials anyways, so all this does is divert my existing D&D-modification time to something that might have better long-term gains...
Not to mention, if this actually gets going well, it would make good content for a website, if Marty's willing...
Of course, I'm going to ask certain people here to help a lot, especially
---Drew (who has as much problem with D&D system as me, if you're interested I'd ask you to partner with me on this)
---Dave (for balancing help)
---Judson (because you got too many mechanics ideas, and you're our prooftester for making sure crazy builds don't work their way in)
PROJECT CURRENT PROPOSALS
Nothing is set here, and will vary a lot based on responses I get back from people...
ABILITY SCORES:
Problem: D&D ability scores don't vary by enough, a STR20 char who'd likely win weightlifting matches has only a 25% higher chance of breaking down the door? Giveme a break. Not to mention certain stats are far more powerful than others (cough DEX cough)
Proposal: This is based off my TIP mechanics design. Dividing the ability score set to 8 stats. Each ability score will be averaged (at in, common human character) at 20. When translating over a char-dev thinking from D&D, just double the ability score. Ability modifiers however will be the difference from 20. So a D&D-STR20 char would have 40 Str in this system, with a +20 STR mod, more than enough for it to win wrestling competitions with.
Eight ability scores:
Strength - normal, strength will also be necessary for any weapon/armor proficiencies above light weapon/armor
Dexterity - hand-eye coordination, impact accuracies/dex-skills
Agility - speed of action, impacts attack/movement speed, defense, etc
Vitality - as constitution, useful for non-combat as it resist fatigue from prolonged skill check actions (like crafting nonstop)
Intelligence - normal*
Wisdom - normal*, except doesn't apply to will saves. Wisdom however will apply to lots of small misc bonuses (AC, attack, skills) to represent intuition
Resolve - strength of determination, impacts will saves, action-points, etc
*Also, raw Int and Wis checks will be used heavily to both limit metagaming (when you do something your character shouldn't be smart enough to figure out) or to get ideas from the DM when you don't know what you should do (since we can't all be as good as our chars, the DM might not be as smart either, but at least they designed the encounter and has a good idea on how to solve it). And with the modifier change, the char's stats is a lot more important than the d20 roll...
BACKGROUND/PERSONALITY:
Kind of like Faerun's background feat, except this'll be kept separate from the feat system. All characters will get 1~2 background and 1 personality. Backgrounds will probably fixed but really good bonuses for low level chars, while personality bonuses will scale with level.
RACES:
Will be similar to how I do it in Chroma - bonuses will scale with level/stats, because that's where humans really shine over the other races (in mechanics terms) right now.
CLASSES:
This needs serious work on redefining and rebalancing the role, significance, and mechanics of each class. Base Attack Bonus and Base Saves will still be class based, except BAB/saves will not only vary, some classes won't progress them at ALL - Obama may be a lvl16+ character to do his job as president, but I doubt he can fight any better than a lvl4 professional soldier. Also, AC and Reflex saves are merged (idea from SW:Saga). Armor may slow your reflexes, but that full-plate also means your skin isn't completely scorched after a fireball.
There will be no prestige classes - D&D has gotten FAR out of hand with that (not to balancing PRCs have become a nightmare). However many class abilities will scale with char-level/BAB/skill-ranks (like DCs) to support crossclassing, similar to how martial initiator levels increase even if you're not in a martial class. Proficiencies are no longer all granted at lvl1, so dipping a fight-type level won't help you.
Taking idea from many d20 variants, class abilities will not be distributed by class levels but by ability trees - this means one doesn't have to take a lot of levels just to grab a few abilities they actually want. To prevent class-dipping, all powerful abilities will have lots of prereqs, no getting Divine Grace at lvl2 crap.
Current class list:
Crusader - a more appropriate name for Paladin, mixed focus between combat and divine powers, resilient vs. aliens-of-the-mortal-realms and divine powers of other sources (enemy clerics, etc).
Druid - the nature caster, see Magus for mechanics, also access to some Scout abilities.
Expert - the generic skill-focused class, great for civilian profesionals.
Magus - the arcanist, gets access to spellbook, and know (spontaneous cast) a few spells from the spellbook, which can change by taking a few hours to memorize. Bard abilities will fall under this class' ability tree.
Marshal - the frontline leader, ability trees to inspire others and support combat, while gaining some combat skills that are more team-oriented.
Noble - the politician, trumps every other class when it comes to social interaction.
Priest - the divine caster, see Magus for mechanics.
Scoundrel - the rogue, except more emphasis on skills and much slower sneak attack progression, this'll be the jack-of-all-trades (rather than the bard), ability trees include negotiator, stealth, infiltration, etc.
Scout - similar to the rogue, except a more limited range of 'field skills'. Limited sneak attack, none of that skirmish stuff. Scout abilities will focus on boosting speed (they'll be fastest of all classes), reducing penalties for attack while moving, stealth/perception, wilderness skills.
Shocktrooper - the tank, with ability trees to optimize usage of heavy armor, heavy weapons, and absorb massive punishment. Barbarian rage will be mixed into this class.
Swordsage - the martial artist, with focus on specific technique/stances rather than overall handling and performance. This'll be the only class that focuses on maneuvers (which can be picked up via feats for other classes). However, identifying the technique (via martial lore) weakens them as you know what to expect, and some disciplines will form a rock-paper-scissors relationship.
Tactician - the planner, directs others in combat or in productivity, will be utilize the lvl1-9 order system (something I'm working on). The tactician directs from the rear where the marshal leads from the front.
HIT POINTS:
Most of your hit points will be gained at lvl1, and progress very slowly afterwards. This'll encourage high-level characters to use brains and not brawn. Your scaling defense/ability can still allow you to kick ass, dynasty warriors style if you wish, but the chances of one well-placed hit to disable you will make one choose their engagements and not just charge in mindlessly.
FEATS:
Taking a note from Races of War [custom WOTC forum design], most feats will now scale with level/BAB/ranks. E.g. take Weapon Specialization and your base weapon damage will start doubling & tripling as your BAB goes up, allowing you to one-hit soldiers even without critical/power-attack.
SKILLS:
Variant off pathfinder, similar to what I have in Chroma. They did a real good job with this. Only thing to be added is formal rules for modifying DCs based on roleplay, and complex multi-tiered skill checks for extremely complicated actions.
SPELLCASTING:
Maintaining the lvl1-9 spell range so we can make use of all D&D spell resources. As for casting spells character will get a pool of points (like psionics), except this pool slowly recharge with rest like HP, not /day. Powerful spells will TAKE TIME (at least 1rnd) so they can be disrupted, so casters will be very powerful, but only if they're defended properly. Combat/skill support spells will remain swift/move action cast.
XP:
Experience is given for getting things done, meaning quests/missions, not how-much-of-a-mess-you-make while questing... <.<
OTHERS:
Weapons will affect more than just damage/crit, e.g. slashing weapons can cleave, bludgeoning can bull-rush, piercing has better accuracy, etc.
Buffs and magical-gear will be weakened significantly as there will be less types of modifiers to use. Caps on certain ones will be much lower - one won't become a genius as soon as they put on headband of intellect.
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"Hurrah, Warsaw's ours!" / "Hurrah, Field Marshal!" - Battle report & promotion notice between Alexander Suvorov & Catherine the Great
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"Hurrah, Warsaw's ours!" / "Hurrah, Field Marshal!" - Battle report & promotion notice between Alexander Suvorov & Catherine the Great
- Squall255
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Re: Custom System
Sounds like you identified a lot of the key flaws in d20. I look forward to playing. I'm a big fan of your ability score proposal, and the classes sound interesting. I like the background and personality idea, and the XP sounds like how people normally do it anyway, just with a heavier focus on story XP. I'm a little iffy about your limit to HP gain,but we'll see how that works out. Sounds like you're using Armor as DR? depending upon damage, you might wanna consider using it as a % reduction over just a flat #.
Last edited by Squall255 on Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Look! He's a brainless, life-sucking god of death. At sunrise he'll vanish like a bad dream. ~Jigo (Princess Mononoke)
<Tal> Our chem teacher said it didn't really matter how we titled the graphs and tables in our semester prac
<Tal> but i still lost marks for having a Table of +2 Undead Slaying and Graph of Destiny![Sad :(](./images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
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Look! He's a brainless, life-sucking god of death. At sunrise he'll vanish like a bad dream. ~Jigo (Princess Mononoke)
<Tal> Our chem teacher said it didn't really matter how we titled the graphs and tables in our semester prac
<Tal> but i still lost marks for having a Table of +2 Undead Slaying and Graph of Destiny
![Sad :(](./images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
- Zanaikin
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Re: Custom System
Also, I forgot to mention... it'll use Wealth checks. So players don't have to track gps for every... little... thing...
Also... if you don't mind, please post why you voted for what you did. Helps me gauge which direction I should aim in...
Also... if you don't mind, please post why you voted for what you did. Helps me gauge which direction I should aim in...
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"Hurrah, Warsaw's ours!" / "Hurrah, Field Marshal!" - Battle report & promotion notice between Alexander Suvorov & Catherine the Great
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"Hurrah, Warsaw's ours!" / "Hurrah, Field Marshal!" - Battle report & promotion notice between Alexander Suvorov & Catherine the Great
- Sajuuk
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Re: Custom System
I'm in, but obviously it should be tried on short games before anything else. I guess I'll put my system idea that I've been working on since attending that panel on the back burner for now.
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TODAY: Arodus 28, 4711
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"No matter how difficult or absurd you make a puzzle, your players will find an even more impossible and preposterous way of solving it." - http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=680
Titles: He Whose Hand Shapes What Is, Epic Destroyer of Loot, Creator of the Elemental Plane of Bishoujos.
- Mr_Praetorian
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Re: Custom System
I'm in. Granted, I have a lot on my plate, but I too grow rather tired of trying to fill in the logical gaps left by the d20 system. Looks like you have a lot of good idea up already.
A couple of suggestions:
1. Since we're taking PRCs out of the picture, perhaps we should consider adding mechanics that will offer more opportunities for multi-class characters. These could be in the form of class abilities that improve by character level, or feats that allow two classes' levels to stack for determining the effect of a few class abilities (similar to monastic training, or aesthetic knight), or what have you.
2. A Social Combat System (similar to exalted 2e), or a variant thereof. Reason being that I think it would give players a reason to place higher important in social skills, by giving them more defined uses. It would also make discussions with NPCs livelier than: Diplomacy Check, Bluff Check, Sense Motive Check, Bluff Check, etc.
A couple of suggestions:
1. Since we're taking PRCs out of the picture, perhaps we should consider adding mechanics that will offer more opportunities for multi-class characters. These could be in the form of class abilities that improve by character level, or feats that allow two classes' levels to stack for determining the effect of a few class abilities (similar to monastic training, or aesthetic knight), or what have you.
2. A Social Combat System (similar to exalted 2e), or a variant thereof. Reason being that I think it would give players a reason to place higher important in social skills, by giving them more defined uses. It would also make discussions with NPCs livelier than: Diplomacy Check, Bluff Check, Sense Motive Check, Bluff Check, etc.
You! Your character's build displeases me! Come to the boards for nerfing!
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Re: Custom System
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"Hurrah, Warsaw's ours!" / "Hurrah, Field Marshal!" - Battle report & promotion notice between Alexander Suvorov & Catherine the Great
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"Hurrah, Warsaw's ours!" / "Hurrah, Field Marshal!" - Battle report & promotion notice between Alexander Suvorov & Catherine the Great
- Mr_Praetorian
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Re: Custom System
Actually, the Social Combat system in Exalted isn't for use in normal combat, its for use in conversations with NPCs.
You! Your character's build displeases me! Come to the boards for nerfing!
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Re: Custom System
I would definitely be interested in trying it out.
The ideas you have up now look mostly good, and take care of a lot of the major problems with DnD, although a couple of them look difficult to flesh out and balance.
One thing that seemed weird to me was the merging of AC/Reflex Saves. While armor might help you avoid damage from a fireball, that full plate will probably hurt you when it comes to avoiding a pit trap, lightning bolt, or magical ray. If you're going to go this route, having armor reduce damage rather than contribute to AC would probably be the best thing to do.
The ideas you have up now look mostly good, and take care of a lot of the major problems with DnD, although a couple of them look difficult to flesh out and balance.
One thing that seemed weird to me was the merging of AC/Reflex Saves. While armor might help you avoid damage from a fireball, that full plate will probably hurt you when it comes to avoiding a pit trap, lightning bolt, or magical ray. If you're going to go this route, having armor reduce damage rather than contribute to AC would probably be the best thing to do.
Would it not be easier
In that case for the government
To dissolve the people
And elect another?
-Bertolt Brecht
In that case for the government
To dissolve the people
And elect another?
-Bertolt Brecht
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Re: Custom System
Looks like at this stage I have the support for go... yay!
But yeah, armor will be providing DR also, but frankly, in a setting where energy spells are every bit as fairgained in warfare as cold steel, you'd expect them to make armor with some kind of resistance, be it the metal or the leather they wear underneath should help. So I don't think this is farfetched.
But yeah, armor will be providing DR also, but frankly, in a setting where energy spells are every bit as fairgained in warfare as cold steel, you'd expect them to make armor with some kind of resistance, be it the metal or the leather they wear underneath should help. So I don't think this is farfetched.
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"Hurrah, Warsaw's ours!" / "Hurrah, Field Marshal!" - Battle report & promotion notice between Alexander Suvorov & Catherine the Great
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"Hurrah, Warsaw's ours!" / "Hurrah, Field Marshal!" - Battle report & promotion notice between Alexander Suvorov & Catherine the Great
- Laharl
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Re: Custom System
I voted for short games because I'm not sure I have the energy to learn another d20 variant to the degree necessary for a game like Chroma or Penthiae.
Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pron surfed, weak and weary,
Over many a strange and spurious site of ' hot xxx galore',
While I clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning, and my heart was filled with mourning, mourning for my dear amour,
"'Tis not possible!", I muttered, "Give me back my free hardcore!
...quoth the server, 404.-Bash.org
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Re: Custom System
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"Hurrah, Warsaw's ours!" / "Hurrah, Field Marshal!" - Battle report & promotion notice between Alexander Suvorov & Catherine the Great
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"Hurrah, Warsaw's ours!" / "Hurrah, Field Marshal!" - Battle report & promotion notice between Alexander Suvorov & Catherine the Great
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Re: Custom System
Cross-class support proposals:
Caster Level = Spellcraft ranks, casting class levels must still be taken for learning spells
Manifester Level = Psicraft ranks, same same
Initiator Level = BAB, maneuver learning still require feats/swordsage-levels
Many other scaled class features will have similar approaches: attack focused abilities scale with BAB, defense abilities scale with one of the saves, skill abilities scale with ranks, etc; feats/class-features that has nothing to do with any of those may scale with character level (e.g. Heroic Spirit)
Some class features however will still only improve when progressing down class talent trees, such as fast movement.
Sneak attack is being scrapped, replaced via feats/talent-trees that help Critical Strikes and Called Shots.
Caster Level = Spellcraft ranks, casting class levels must still be taken for learning spells
Manifester Level = Psicraft ranks, same same
Initiator Level = BAB, maneuver learning still require feats/swordsage-levels
Many other scaled class features will have similar approaches: attack focused abilities scale with BAB, defense abilities scale with one of the saves, skill abilities scale with ranks, etc; feats/class-features that has nothing to do with any of those may scale with character level (e.g. Heroic Spirit)
Some class features however will still only improve when progressing down class talent trees, such as fast movement.
Sneak attack is being scrapped, replaced via feats/talent-trees that help Critical Strikes and Called Shots.
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()
"Hurrah, Warsaw's ours!" / "Hurrah, Field Marshal!" - Battle report & promotion notice between Alexander Suvorov & Catherine the Great
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"Hurrah, Warsaw's ours!" / "Hurrah, Field Marshal!" - Battle report & promotion notice between Alexander Suvorov & Catherine the Great
- Zanaikin
- Tsunshun
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Re: Custom System
Guys, don't hesitate to post suggestions/advice/rebuttals. The reason I post this stuff so far ahead before getting around to write them is to see if anyone would have recommendations on changing, or major complaints against it.
Here's another brand new concept...
When me & Marty were at Otakon, another hat the panels put on D&D was that it was too authoritarian. Not just slightly too much, but literally a complete totalitarian dictatorship where the player has only two choices: agree with the DM's decisions, or quit the game. Rather extreme ends.
Well, although if D&D were a game where players voted all the time on what would happen, DMs would all be throwing in their dice bags and quitting. Obviously, this is a case where democracy does not work.
So somewhere in between... and the concept is:
For 2 Fate Points (what I renamed Action Points, since AP is being diverted as another resource), the player can call to "Challenge the DM".
Basically it can do one of two things:
1. Force the DM to reroll whatever he just rolled, and in front of everyone (if the game is in person and the players suspect DM of fudging dice). Obviously, the challenge must be issued before the DM calls the result, so if you see that famous 'evil grin', you better call it. This also offers the opportunity for some jeopardy style moments... (sadly, this doesn't work online)
2. Force a counterproposal of what happened onto the table. Both the DM and the challenging player then present their cases on why they think something should happen their way, and all players of the game (including the DM) vote on it. Basically, this is what you use when you think the DM is doing something really unfair, or outright railroading, or... you know what I mean. This is limited to only the result to a single action (but not necessarily limited to within one round), so the player can't start blabbing on how he conquered the world AND became the next King of Heroes. This offers some extremely powerful counter-DM capabilities, but players are advised not to abuse this just because you rolled poorly and acted stupidly - because remember, you might be able to issue challenges, but the DM can toss lightning bolts at you free of charge, and you're bound to run out of AP sooner or later. Of course, if you start a war on the table with the DM, then it's probably cue for you to leave the game.
Here's another brand new concept...
When me & Marty were at Otakon, another hat the panels put on D&D was that it was too authoritarian. Not just slightly too much, but literally a complete totalitarian dictatorship where the player has only two choices: agree with the DM's decisions, or quit the game. Rather extreme ends.
Well, although if D&D were a game where players voted all the time on what would happen, DMs would all be throwing in their dice bags and quitting. Obviously, this is a case where democracy does not work.
So somewhere in between... and the concept is:
For 2 Fate Points (what I renamed Action Points, since AP is being diverted as another resource), the player can call to "Challenge the DM".
Basically it can do one of two things:
1. Force the DM to reroll whatever he just rolled, and in front of everyone (if the game is in person and the players suspect DM of fudging dice). Obviously, the challenge must be issued before the DM calls the result, so if you see that famous 'evil grin', you better call it. This also offers the opportunity for some jeopardy style moments... (sadly, this doesn't work online)
2. Force a counterproposal of what happened onto the table. Both the DM and the challenging player then present their cases on why they think something should happen their way, and all players of the game (including the DM) vote on it. Basically, this is what you use when you think the DM is doing something really unfair, or outright railroading, or... you know what I mean. This is limited to only the result to a single action (but not necessarily limited to within one round), so the player can't start blabbing on how he conquered the world AND became the next King of Heroes. This offers some extremely powerful counter-DM capabilities, but players are advised not to abuse this just because you rolled poorly and acted stupidly - because remember, you might be able to issue challenges, but the DM can toss lightning bolts at you free of charge, and you're bound to run out of AP sooner or later. Of course, if you start a war on the table with the DM, then it's probably cue for you to leave the game.
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"Hurrah, Warsaw's ours!" / "Hurrah, Field Marshal!" - Battle report & promotion notice between Alexander Suvorov & Catherine the Great
()
"Hurrah, Warsaw's ours!" / "Hurrah, Field Marshal!" - Battle report & promotion notice between Alexander Suvorov & Catherine the Great
- Squall255
- The cake is a lie because I ate it.
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Re: Custom System
I like the idea you put out for the Counter Proposal, and I feel that that's how it should work anyway. I'm iffy about making it cost the player fate points though. In the end, I think it comes down to how mature people feel like being. Allowing for the use of ingame FatePoints to challenge how a DM rules that something should be done may sound like a good idea, but if the player is right, then he shouldn't be penalized for it (Fate Points are pretty powerful stuff) and if the player is wrong then he is now out more resources that he would need to deal with the ruling. I would suggest having a rule where a character can forgo his share of the loot, or his XP for the next part of the adventure or something. This would be an incentive to not call a challenge at every oppertunity, but still make the call when it needs to be made.
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Look! He's a brainless, life-sucking god of death. At sunrise he'll vanish like a bad dream. ~Jigo (Princess Mononoke)
<Tal> Our chem teacher said it didn't really matter how we titled the graphs and tables in our semester prac
<Tal> but i still lost marks for having a Table of +2 Undead Slaying and Graph of Destiny![Sad :(](./images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
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Look! He's a brainless, life-sucking god of death. At sunrise he'll vanish like a bad dream. ~Jigo (Princess Mononoke)
<Tal> Our chem teacher said it didn't really matter how we titled the graphs and tables in our semester prac
<Tal> but i still lost marks for having a Table of +2 Undead Slaying and Graph of Destiny
![Sad :(](./images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
- Mr_Praetorian
- High Lord of Ham
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Re: Custom System
Frankly, if the 'said gaming group is mature enough, then Fate Points shouldn't even be necessary. I typically avoid forcing the PCs to have pay something in order to question rulings, and honestly, if I my DM announced that the cost to challenge his decisions was XP, that would be the moment I left the group. If one would insist on allowing Fate Points to change die rolls, then one had better limit the scope of that challenging ability to that of the given player, let things get really out of hand.
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